No Evidence has been presented as of today


#1

I recently posted a thread in another forum asking ;
Is there any evidence that Any of the Reformers were sent from God ?"

there were many posts attempting to discredit the Roman Catholic Church
but none presented evidence that the Reformers were sent by God.

not one.

I am wondering if anyone here has some knowledge on the subject that those other guys don’t know ?

In the Peace of Christ

gusano


#2

I hope this isn’t too curt, or off topic, but I was sitting in a protestant Christian service during a “sermonar” series on the antichrist. The pastor (who is nationally televised and well respected in all communities) was saying that the beast will come from within the church. That Christians are more apt to be tempted by satan because non-Christians are not a threat to satan, etc…then I was thinking, ha, that’s funny! Martin Luther was a priest!

Now I’m not saying he was the antichrist, but isn’t it true that satan really seems to get off on corrupting from within? We must guard our faith at all times.


#3

We were all made in the image of God. Does that coem into play in this context?

Alan


#4

I believe that, ultimately, all things come from God. Even with all the negative consequences of the Reformation, a positive one would be that it prompted the Church to clean up Her act.

If I were a Protestant of a nasty disposition, I could say that a sign that the Reformers were from God is that they brought the true, Biblical faith back to Christianity. The Reformation got rid of all those Catholic inventions and the worship of idols and replaced them with the faith of our fathers, i.e., sola scriptura and sola fide. The resultant wars, further divisions of the church, etc. are not to be taken into consideration as such things are to be expected when the true Church reemerges after being oppressed and suppressed by the Catholics.

Seriously, though, this is a question worth posing to someone who will actually think about it. I’d love to hear a real, thinking Protestant’s view on the matter. It’s not a question I ever considered as a Protestant, and I don’t feel like I can fairly respond to it as a convert.


#5

Wow, that is interesting. Has Catholicism changed you so deeply that you cannot imagine a point of view like you used to have?

That is awesome. I am embraceing increasingly more of the Catholic faith all the time, but I assure you I remember all too well the nights I stayed up angry all night fuming over stuff – makes it easy to empathize but not so fond memories.

Alan


#6

Hi,

No man can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit. (I Cor. 12:3) and Jesus said ‘Whoever is not against us is for us’ (Mk 9:40) Meaning - whoever was not against Him, rather than His Church [as an institution]. What I’m getting at is this: If we come from the concept that God is infinitely Holier, Wiser, more powerful than we can imagine - we can also get the idea that we are infinitely farther removed from Him than we can imagine. Our lives here are most likely immeasurably disgusting to Him, so - for some people then - a ‘ladder’ type of approach works best to approach God. Not that He needs this - we do.

Many people have been brought up with no Faith whatsoever, and the concept of God is completely foreign to them. They need to be taken slowly to the truth, from the basic ‘fundamental’ truths {no pun intended} into the fullness of the truth, slowly. Remember - God doesn’t wish that any should perish (2 Peter 3:19) and He is patient with us, giving us what we need to come to Him - for some it is the softer way of Protestantism and faith alone - allowing the Holy Spirit to work from there, since He now has an ‘inroad’ so to speak. I mean, after all - isn’t that the whole Life right there? Following the leading of the Holy Spirit? Just my opinion here, but I believe that God allowed the reformation to happen to give everyone accesss to Christ and a way to the truth found in the RCC, as they needed, in order to approach it - with a firm scriptural foundation of knowlege; as well as a challenge to KNOW the Truths presented in the RCC to those within it already - as we are ALL responsible for these truths: to know them, follow them, and Teach them.

Can anyone honestly say that they would have learned what they have learned as thoroughly as they have without the challenges presented by protestantism to the Faith? I know I can say - I wouldn’t have.

Does that make sense to anyone else?

Peace

John


#7

[quote=gusano]I recently posted a thread in another forum asking ;
Is there any evidence that Any of the Reformers were sent from God ?"
[/quote]

Yes. Those individuals who saw corruption – BUT CHOSE TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS FROM WITHIN THE CHURCH! Those reformers were sent by God!

Erasmus

Sts. John Fisher and Thomas More

St. Ignatius Loyola

St. Pius V

Reginald Pole.

Etc.

Blessings,


#8

[quote=gusano]I recently posted a thread in another forum asking ;
Is there any evidence that Any of the Reformers were sent from God ?"

there were many posts attempting to discredit the Roman Catholic Church
but none presented evidence that the Reformers were sent by God.

not one.

I am wondering if anyone here has some knowledge on the subject that those other guys don’t know ?

In the Peace of Christ

gusano
[/quote]

Well there have been millions of lives changed and people turning to Christ through the Protestant Reformation. Know them by their fruits and all that. OF course this is anecdotal but that is the only kind of evidence one can offer to such a question.

My life was transformed by in and through Protestantism.

Mel


#9

When it comes to Luther, I see in his actions what I have seen in my own life when I am overwhelmed by guilt due to sin. Often it is so painful that my first reaction has been to try to disprove my reasons for believing, thus relieving myself of the guilt.

In my case each time this has happened I’ve become stronger in my faith as a result and I pick myself up, get to confession and continue on in faith.

In all of these instances I now clearly see the workings of Satan. I see that he was the one who helped me to sin and tried to convince me that it was ok because my faith was based on a lie anyway.

I see the same thing in Luther’s actions. Luther’s actions against the church were the result of scrupulosity (a product of the devil) and it opened up the floodgates for many other likeminded people to attack the church.

God, does have the ability to bring good out of evil, so I do think that God took advantage of the situation to inspire the counter reformation and perhaps to purify the Church a bit, but God certainly didn’t cause the reformation.


#10

[quote=PraRFLEsEkHm]Hi,

…Remember - God doesn’t wish that any should perish (2 Peter 3:19) and He is patient with us, giving us what we need to come to Him - for some it is the softer way of Protestantism and faith alone - allowing the Holy Spirit to work from there, since He now has an ‘inroad’ so to speak. I mean, after all - isn’t that the whole Life right there? Following the leading of the Holy Spirit? Just my opinion here, but I believe that God allowed the reformation to happen to give everyone accesss to Christ and a way to the truth found in the RCC, as they needed, in order to approach it - with a firm scriptural foundation of knowlege; as well as a challenge to KNOW the Truths presented in the RCC to those within it already - as we are ALL responsible for these truths: to know them, follow them, and Teach them.

Can anyone honestly say that they would have learned what they have learned as thoroughly as they have without the challenges presented by protestantism to the Faith? I know I can say - I wouldn’t have.

Does that make sense to anyone else?

Peace

John
[/quote]

Hello John,

I hope I am not reading you right, but I seem to hear some implications that Luther may have lead Catholics to deeper understanding and connection to Holy Scriptures.

On CAF Luther! Read Read! thread (one of the highest Views threads in CAF Apologetics) we have thuroghly looked at Luther’s perversion of Holy Scriptures. Luther hates Jesus teaching, If you wish to enter into life, obey the commandments. Luther, along with the majority of modern Protestants, greatly avoid Jesus teachings and focus on St. Paul’s writings which have a high tendancy to be missconscrewed. Especially those writings of St. Paul, which can be easily misunderstood to directly counter Jesus direct teachings to obey God if you wish to enter into life. Luther pretty much avoided using Mathew, Mark, and Luke, which are Jesus words, and based the vast majority of his false theology from his misunderstanding of St. Paul’s writtings.

On the Luther! Read Read! thread, we even found a quote from Luther quoting Jesus’ words as his “opponant”.

Maybe Luther caused the Church to preach more directly from scriptures but it was hardly worth the centuries of billions of Protestants being lead astray by his theological abominations.

Luther****The doctrine of our opponents is similar to that of the false apostles in Paul’s day.Our opponents teach, "If you want to live unto God, you must live after the Law, for it is written, Do this and thou shalt live."

NAB MAT 19:16

“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” NAB DEU 30:15 The Choice before Israel.Here then, I have today set before you life and prosperity, death and doom. If you obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin on you today, loving him, and walking in his ways, and keeping his commandments, statutes and decrees, you will live and grow numerous, and the LORD, your God, will bless you in the land you are entering to occupy.” NAB LUK 10:25**“Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” Jesus answered him:** "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" He replied:
"You shall love the Lord your God
**with all your heart, **
**with all your soul, **
**with all your strength, **
**and with all your mind; **
and your neighbor as yourself."
Jesus said, “You have answered correctly. Do this and you shall live.”


#11

This is my opinion.

About those who say that the challenges presented by Protestantism have helped improve our faith.

Alright, true, I was driven to Catholic Answers and to trying to learn more about what we believed due to the challenges of Protestants.

But there was nothing wrong with my faith before that. That’s why I was able to believe the Catholic teaching when I read it. Learning about what we believed wasn’t an increase in my faith, instead, it was to stop my faith decreasing.

Where did the threat to my faith decreasing come from? From the Protestants!

Jesus said that the little children have the best faith. They will basically just believe. My faith was once like that of a little child (I was little not so long ago). Then it got challenged. The problem is, we can’t continue to have faith like little children, because there are those who want to cause us little ones to stumble. Better that they had a rock tied to them and have them thrown in the sea.

The ‘good’ that the Protestants do is not a net amount of good. They only do ‘good’ for our faith because they do more bad to it first! If there were no Protestants, and no-one else trying to make us lose our faith, then we could all have perfect faith like little children.

As for their fruits - all the conversions they had made. If there was no reformation, these people who are Protestants now would have been Catholics instead. And so rather than just merely converting people to Christianity, they would be converting people to the One True Church. That would be much better!

Anything God does is always good in the long run. Protestantism is not good in the long run. Therefore, it is not from God.


#12

[quote=gusano]I recently posted a thread in another forum asking ;
Is there any evidence that Any of the Reformers were sent from God ?"

there were many posts attempting to discredit the Roman Catholic Church
but none presented evidence that the Reformers were sent by God.

not one.

I am wondering if anyone here has some knowledge on the subject that those other guys don’t know ?

In the Peace of Christ

gusano
[/quote]

Is there any evidence that you would accept?


#13

[quote=AlanFromWichita]Wow, that is interesting. Has Catholicism changed you so deeply that you cannot imagine a point of view like you used to have?

That is awesome. I am embraceing increasingly more of the Catholic faith all the time, but I assure you I remember all too well the nights I stayed up angry all night fuming over stuff – makes it easy to empathize but not so fond memories.

Alan
[/quote]

It was just a question of whether or not my answering that question “as a Protestant” would be fair. I meant it only to say that my frame of mind has since changed, so while I could examine the question while remembering my former frame of mind, I couldn’t examine it while actually possessing my former frame of mind. That said, recalling my Protestant-ness, I can’t really come up with any reasons to believe the Reformers were from God. I just don’t really feel I could say that an actual Protestant wouldn’t be able to come up with any. It isn’t fair for me to put words in someone else’s mouth.


#14

[quote=PraRFLEsEkHm]Hi,

No man can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit. (I Cor. 12:3) and Jesus said ‘Whoever is not against us is for us’ (Mk 9:40) Meaning - whoever was not against Him, rather than His Church [as an institution]. What I’m getting at is this: If we come from the concept that God is infinitely Holier, Wiser, more powerful than we can imagine - we can also get the idea that we are infinitely farther removed from Him than we can imagine. Our lives here are most likely immeasurably disgusting to Him, so - for some people then - a ‘ladder’ type of approach works best to approach God. Not that He needs this - we do.

Many people have been brought up with no Faith whatsoever, and the concept of God is completely foreign to them. They need to be taken slowly to the truth, from the basic ‘fundamental’ truths {no pun intended} into the fullness of the truth, slowly. Remember - God doesn’t wish that any should perish (2 Peter 3:19) and He is patient with us, giving us what we need to come to Him - for some it is the softer way of Protestantism and faith alone - allowing the Holy Spirit to work from there, since He now has an ‘inroad’ so to speak. I mean, after all - isn’t that the whole Life right there? Following the leading of the Holy Spirit? Just my opinion here, but I believe that God allowed the reformation to happen to give everyone accesss to Christ and a way to the truth found in the RCC, as they needed, in order to approach it - with a firm scriptural foundation of knowlege; as well as a challenge to KNOW the Truths presented in the RCC to those within it already - as we are ALL responsible for these truths: to know them, follow them, and Teach them.

Can anyone honestly say that they would have learned what they have learned as thoroughly as they have without the challenges presented by protestantism to the Faith? I know I can say - I wouldn’t have.

Does that make sense to anyone else?

Peace

John
[/quote]

It makes sense to me John,
For years Iwelcomed jehovah’s witnesses and when they stopped coming I missed the challenge. (am I sick?)
Then in 1998 my ex catholic, evangelical brother invited me to get into a bible study with him. when I asked him why…
He wanted to get me out of “that stupid church you are in”… was his answer. :smiley:
I said to him "If you can show me a better church, I will join it."
He unleashed all his evangelical training against the Catholic Church and I dug in to find what the Church teaches.
If it wasn’t for his attacks against Catholicism, I would never have discovered a RICHNESS greater than Fort Knox in the Roman Catholic Church.

I think God wants me to go and thank him personally.

so maybe my brother Richard was sent by God…

God bless,

gusano


#15

[quote=Melchior]Well there have been millions of lives changed and people turning to Christ through the Protestant Reformation. Know them by their fruits and all that. OF course this is anecdotal but that is the only kind of evidence one can offer to such a question.

My life was transformed by in and through Protestantism.

Mel
[/quote]

Transformed from “WHAT” to “WHAT?”.

If it was from
"Receiving the Body and blood of Christ".
to
"No longer receiving the body and blood of Christ…"

I don’t consider that to be evidence that it is from God…

gusano


#16

[quote=SolaChristo]Is there any evidence that you would accept?
[/quote]

Yes SolaChristo,
One evidence I can think of, that I would accept is
That a Reformer would
Persuade a Catholic or fellow reformer / protestant to receive the body and blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

another evidence is
that evangelical churches would begin to errect Altars in their sanctuaries… (read Rev. 11: 1)

Those , in my opinion would be acceptable evidences that God is sending or inspiring or drawing someone to himself.

just off the top of my head… :slight_smile:

empty head

gusano


#17

[quote=Steven Merten]Hello John,

I hope I am not reading you right, but I seem to hear some implications that Luther may have lead Catholics to deeper understanding and connection to Holy Scriptures.
[/quote]

Not only scriptures, but Church teachings. I am not saying that any Protestant faith is correct, nor am I saying that there are ‘good relations’ between churches. What I am saying is that it seems [to me] that the challenge to the faith presented by protestants has caused people [some people] to dig deeper and really learn the faith. I am also saying that in all probability there are people attracted to the hype some churches put out there who would otherwise not ever seek Christ or God through any other means initially - I can find several examples throughout scripture to suggest the same. The world before Noah’s Flood comes to mind first of all. Sodom and Gomorrah next. Many many people are likewise coming to the Faith through protestantism today, who might never have given it a second look otherwise.

Note that I am not saying the reformation was brought about by God…but rather that - as I said - He allowed it to happen and is using it for His will. Both in and out of the Church.

Again - just a thought.

Peace


#18

[quote=gusano]Yes SolaChristo,
One evidence I can think of, that I would accept is
That a Reformer would
Persuade a Catholic or fellow reformer / protestant to receive the body and blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

another evidence is
that evangelical churches would begin to errect Altars in their sanctuaries… (read Rev. 11: 1)

Those , in my opinion would be acceptable evidences that God is sending or inspiring or drawing someone to himself.

just off the top of my head… :slight_smile:

empty head

gusano
[/quote]

How about a return to the appreciation of God’s word. The availablity of that word in hundreds of languages throughout the whole earth.Men and women that guide and order their lives on Gods word that they write Gods word on their hearts and place it in their minds. Men and women reading Gods word, meditating on it and reading it to their children.


#19

[quote=SolaChristo]How about a return to the appreciation of God’s word. The availablity of that word in hundreds of languages throughout the whole earth.Men and women that guide and order their lives on Gods word that they write Gods word on their hearts and place it in their minds. Men and women reading Gods word, meditating on it and reading it to their children.
[/quote]

The Bible had already been translated into various vernaculars by the Catholic Church when Luther came along. The Catholic Church actually (shock and awe) encouraged Bible reading among Her literate members long before the Reformation. Unless the Reformers can take credit for the rise in literacy, they can’t take credit for the rise in Bible reading.

Also, I’d wager that an illiterate medieval Catholic knew a lot more of the Bible than you’d think. There were amazing and effective efforts to translate the Bible into the language of pictures and symbolic art. For some reason, people like to assume that the Bible and the Mass were kept in Latin for so long because the Church wanted to hide something from Her members. Is it so hard to imagine that this just stemmed from a desire for simplicity and unity? Also, with translation comes the potential for mistranslation. It isn’t sinister to want to avoid that.


#20

[quote=PraRFLEsEkHm]Not only scriptures, but Church teachings. I am not saying that any Protestant faith is correct, nor am I saying that there are ‘good relations’ between churches. What I am saying is that it seems [to me] that the challenge to the faith presented by protestants has caused people [some people] to dig deeper and really learn the faith. I am also saying that in all probability there are people attracted to the hype some churches put out there who would otherwise not ever seek Christ or God through any other means initially - I can find several examples throughout scripture to suggest the same. The world before Noah’s Flood comes to mind first of all. Sodom and Gomorrah next. Many many people are likewise coming to the Faith through protestantism today, who might never have given it a second look otherwise.

Note that I am not saying the reformation was brought about by God…but rather that - as I said - He allowed it to happen and is using it for His will. Both in and out of the Church.

Again - just a thought.

Peace
[/quote]

Hello John,

It gets difficult when one is considering that those leading God’s people into evil is, “He (God) allowed it to happen and is using it for His will.”

Certianly God could have made it so that Satan was not allowed to tempt free willed man on earth. Certianly those who are tempted by Satan but persevere to obey God have a greater gift of love and faith for God than those who went untested by temptation. Certianly after Adam and Eve’s fall, they looked back on Eden lost and their new conditions of death and punishments and then possibly developed a greater zeal to follow and obey God in the future. Still it is hard to contemplate Satan’s temptation as something God is using for His will.

In the same way it is hard to imagine Luther leading people away from the will of God as something God is using for His will. Though I will agree that those tested but prevail have produced a great treasure of faith in heaven, an eternal gift of love for God which God will cherish for all eternity, and this is good.

NAB 1PE 1:6

There is cause for rejoicing here. You may for a time have to suffer the distress of many trials; but this is so that your faith, which is more precious than the passing splendor of fire-tried gold, may by its genuineness lead to praise, glory, and honor when Jesus Christ appears.

NAB SIR 35:1

To keep the law is a great oblation, and he who observes the commandments sacrifices a peace offering. In works of charity one offers fine flour, and when he gives alms he presents his sacrifice of praise. To refrain from evil pleases the LORD, and to avoid injustice is an atonement. Appear not before the LORD empty handed, for all that you offer is in fulfillment of the precepts. The just man’s offering enriches the altar and rises as a sweet odor before the Most High. The just man’s sacrifice is most pleasing, nor will it ever be forgotten. In generous spirit pay homage to the LORD, be not sparing of freewill gifts. With each contribution show a cheerful countenance, and pay your tithes in a spirit of joy. Give to the Most High as he has given to you generously, according to your means. For the LORD is one who always repays, and he will give back to you sevenfold.NAB SIR 17:17

A man’s goodness God cherishes like a signet ring, a man’s virtue, like the apple of his eye.


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