No Fault Divorce

#45

[quote="St_Francis, post:44, topic:211145"]
You know, it is always GOOD to REFLECT on what people are SAYING before you jump in and start YELLING at them and INSULTING them...

We are not discussing cases in which a spouse is so destructive to the family that the separation is necessary. We are not talking about cases where the spouse is taking drugs or abusing alcohol or beating other members of the family or taking all the money. We are talking about cases where one spouse thinks he or she can just destroy an other-intact family because he or she feels like it. Because he or she looks over the fence and thinks the grass is greener over there.

I see that you do not list yourself as a Catholic, so I will assume that you do not understand the Catholic point of view here, which is that a sacramental marriage cannot be undone: What God has put together, let no man put asunder. The Church does however acknowledge that there are times when physical separation is necessary for the safety of the family members, that one spouse has so failed in his or her position in the family--at times due to illness or physical injury-- that this separation must occur, and that a civil divorce might be necessary in order to protect the other members of the family.

We are not in any way denying the occasional necessity of divorce under certain circumstances. In these cases, however, the spouse who has been ill-treated can divorce for cause. There is absolutely no necessity for non-fault divorce, which is a license to break up families on any whim of one of the spouses, with no fault on the part of the other.

The family is the central unit of society. Without healthy families, we will not have a healthy society. And indeed we see this in the studies which come out showing that children from broken homes overall fare worse than children from intact families. IIn fact, children affected by the breaking of their family known as divorce suffer more ill effects than children whose parent has died, so it is not the mere absence of the parent which causes the problem.

And this trend in the US to allow the more important "contract" of all to be broken with no consequences, no responsibility, has very much weakened our society and more importantly, deeply harmed our children. Even children of intact homes know about divorce and fear the potentiality.

And the fact that our society does not protect the more basic and most vulnerable part of itself is just sickening. Any woman and child can be "discarded" at the whim of any spouse, without having done anything wrong.

Any person who wants to have a relationship with someone else, or their "freedom" to have sex with whomever, can just dump all their vows and obligations, leaving those who are left to pick up the pieces.

Yes, I admire this woman for trying to get the government to do one of its jobs, which is to protect the citizens against selfish people who unfortunately can just go off and abandon their families. The reaction to this should not have been to pass a no-fault divorce law in that state, but to institute stronger divorce laws which would protect the innocent people in the family.

The state should ensure that marriage is indeed through better and worse, through sickness and health, til death do them part, because this is one of the most important things it can do. We pass health care, and think that we are doing a wonderful thing, we have welfare, and think we are doing a wonderful thing, but we allow familes to be ripped apart by caprice, and that is what we should be fixing *first. *

[/quote]

You're wrong on so many things, First off, i do UNDERSTAND the catholic view on marriage. I also stated IN ADDITION to the situation here, that there are times when divorce is necessary. The man did have a right to get a divorce. He didn't love his wife anymore, he started a new life, he wanted away from her. Yes, its terrible that the woman had to be 'punished' this way. She loved him, she wanted to be with him, she knew they said vows, but this man has free will. She cannot control him. He did not want her, and due to that, he had the right to get away from her. Its called 'free-will'. Also if this man did not want his wife and started a new life without her, i dont understand why this wife didn't just get it through her thick head and let him be. I understand she loved him, she thinks marriage i saccred, but he did NOT want her. She tried to control him to stay against his happiness. She should have just accepted it and found another love. She shouldn't stay with somebody who doesn't love or respect her anyways.

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#46

[quote="BlueShadow123, post:45, topic:211145"]
You're wrong on so many things, First off, i do UNDERSTAND the catholic view on marriage. I also stated IN ADDITION to the situation here, that there are times when divorce is necessary. The man did have a right to get a divorce. He didn't love his wife anymore, he started a new life, he wanted away from her. Yes, its terrible that the woman had to be 'punished' this way. She loved him, she wanted to be with him, she knew they said vows, but this man has free will. She cannot control him. He did not want her, and due to that, he had the right to get away from her. Its called 'free-will'. Also if this man did not want his wife and started a new life without her, i dont understand why this wife didn't just get it through her thick head and let him be. I understand she loved him, she thinks marriage i saccred, but he did NOT want her. She tried to control him to stay against his happiness. She should have just accepted it and found another love. She shouldn't stay with somebody who doesn't love or respect her anyways.

[/quote]

That's not just cause.

Nobody has the right to do evil.

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#47

[quote="BlueShadow123, post:45, topic:211145"]
You're wrong on so many things, First off, i do UNDERSTAND the catholic view on marriage.

[/quote]

If you understood the Catholic view of marriage, then you would not be writing what you are writing.

I also stated IN ADDITION to the situation here, that there are times when divorce is necessary.

When people use all-capitals, they are "shouting." When people call other people "'slow.'" they are insulting.

Yes, we all know that in addition to the situation here, there are cases where divorce is necessary. Duh. But *that is not what the topic here is. *We are talking about how no-fault divorce is used in situations *other *than those.

The man did have a right to get a divorce.

The husband had *no right whatsoever *to be able to abandon his family. That is the entire point.

He didn't love his wife anymore,

Marriage is not about a feeeeling *of *loooooove. Marriage is about two people coming together to form a family. It is about two presumed adults deciding to put themselves together, to form one body, to have (if they are so blessed) children, and to raise those children. Together, mutually, and mutually supporting each other.

he started a new life, he wanted away from her.

Neither of which he had any right to do.

Yes, its terrible that the woman had to be 'punished' this way.

She was not punished. She was *harmed. *As were their children.

She loved him, she wanted to be with him, she knew they said vows,

We do not know that she loved him in the way that you are talking about. But she loved him in the way proper to marriage, which is to decide to stick with someone through thick and thin, reagrdless of those momentary, fleeting feelings which might mitigate against such an outcome.

but this man has free will.

God gave us free will so that when we did good things, they were as a result of our decision. He did not give us free will so that we could go and violate his laws.

Again I ask you, do you think that we should eliminate all laws on the basis that people have free will? if someone steals your stuff, do you think, well, after all, he has free will? I don't think so!

She cannot control him.

He did not want her, and due to that, he had the right to get away from her. Its called 'free-will'. Also if this man did not want his wife and started a new life without her, i dont understand why this wife didn't just get it through her thick head and let him be. I understand she loved him, she thinks marriage i saccred, but he did NOT want her. She tried to control him to stay against his happiness. She should have just accepted it and found another love. She shouldn't stay with somebody who doesn't love or respect her anyways.

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#48

Sorry about my last post; by the Time I went back to edit it, it was too late.

[quote="BlueShadow123, post:45, topic:211145"]
.... She cannot control him.

[/quote]

Nor is it her job to. This is one of the reasons we have a government, to enforce agreements, and for the government to neglect the foundation of its society is foolish, and to neglect the children is abusive.

He did not want her, and due to that, he had the right to get away from her.

Oh, his lack of desire for her gives him the right to destroy his family, to traumatized his children? How do you figure that?

Its called 'free-will'.

You have a totally wrong idea of what free will is for. God did not give us free will to do bad things with. Do you think that that fact that someone has free will gives them the right to come into your house and break up your stuff? I don't think so!

Also if this man did not want his wife and started a new life without her, i dont understand why this wife didn't just get it through her thick head and let him be. I understand she loved him, she thinks marriage i saccred, but he did NOT want her. She tried to control him to stay against his happiness. She should have just accepted it and found another love. She shouldn't stay with somebody who doesn't love or respect her anyways.

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#49

I see what’s happening here, I’m having trouble because I am using a yexting device rather than a computer. Please accept my second apology for the confusing posts.

Maybe because she was thinking about the harm to their children and the harm to his soul.

… She tried to control him to stay against his happiness.

Give me a break! In business you don’t get to break an agreement just because you found a better deal after you signed the contract. And in life you shouldn’t be able to put your “happiness” over the wellbeing of those you promised to care for.

She should have just accepted it and found another love. She shouldn’t stay with somebody who doesn’t love or respect her anyways.

Marriage is not high school dating. Marriage involves life-long commitments and children.

Of course, the acceptance of serial monogamy is one of the reasons I think that dating is a bad idea…

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#50

What’s up with this, Blue Shadow? Doesn’t he have free will? Should he not be allowed to do whatever whatever makes him happy? You can’t control other people, you know.

:rolleyes:

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#51

I dont think you get that he did not love her anymore. Why on earth should they stay together if one of them does not respect the other and does not love the other? What kind of marriage is that? Practically none, if you ask me. And yes, due to the fact that god has given us free will, he IS able to leave her, and that is exactly what he did. Traumatizing the children? I know of many people who have seen their parents get multiple divorces and turned out fine. I’m one of them. It is the least bit traumatizing. And to be honest, after watching my dad get multiple divorces, as same with my mom and others, I realize its for the better. I’m actually extremely happy that my dad is not married to my mom anymore because he kept cheating on her and it hurt her traumatically. Also, im glad hes not married to his second wife anymore because she turned out to be a raging alcoholic who was doing physical damage. Im also very pleased that my mother is leaving her second husband because he turned out to be a jerk with multiple issues, and she and i are both very unhappy with him. we will be gone from him within a month. My cousins parents recently got a divorce and the parents are actually happy without eachother due to the fact that they just became incompatable. Also, my step sisters and previous step sisters parents all got divorces. It turned out for the better, also, one of my other cousins parents got a divorce, because it turned very abusive and now the parents are both re-married and living very happily. Im not going to list all my friends situations, but i can tell you right now that sometimes when somebody gets a divorce, its for the better. You can only try so much to make it work. If one person is not willing, its hardly a marriage anymore. The guy in this story left his wife because he did not love her. He was happier without her. She needs to find a guy who loves her and will not cheat on her and will never leave her.
Divorces actually can turn out for the better and im walking proof of it. :slight_smile: Now im not advocating divorces, im just saying that sometimes its the thing to do.

And now that i have said that, there is no reason to continue debating about this. The lady lost her husband. Its a terrible shame, and i hope she will find love again and somebody who actually respects her and wants to be with her. But debating about marriage is not going to change the situation that happened to her. You know my position and i know yours. We need to stop debating, it will not change my mind that sometimes divorce is for the better, and im not here to change your mind either. Just simply telling you about it through personal experience. So, that being said, please top debating me and i will stop debating you. :thumbsup:

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#52

[quote="BlueShadow123, post:51, topic:211145"]
I dont...

[/quote]

Blue Shadow,
I am sorry to see that you are surrounded by immature adults who are ignoring the fact that they are parents and acting like they are in high school. And I am sorry that they have behaved so badly around you that you think that acting
like marriage is just going steady only with a party is perfectly ok. I am sorry that you are not learning about honor o commitment.

Your situation strikes me as very sad, and I see that because of it, you will be totally unable to understand what we are saying in this thread.

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#53

[quote="BlueShadow123, post:51, topic:211145"]
I dont think you get that he did not love her anymore. Why on earth should they stay together if one of them does not respect the other and does not love the other? What kind of marriage is that? Practically none, if you ask me. And yes, due to the fact that god has given us free will, he IS able to leave her, and that is exactly what he did. Traumatizing the children? I know of many people who have seen their parents get multiple divorces and turned out fine. I'm one of them. It is the least bit traumatizing. And to be honest, after watching my dad get multiple divorces, as same with my mom and others, I realize its for the better. I'm actually extremely happy that my dad is not married to my mom anymore because he kept cheating on her and it hurt her traumatically. Also, im glad hes not married to his second wife anymore because she turned out to be a raging alcoholic who was doing physical damage. Im also very pleased that my mother is leaving her second husband because he turned out to be a jerk with multiple issues, and she and i are both very unhappy with him. we will be gone from him within a month. My cousins parents recently got a divorce and the parents are actually happy without eachother due to the fact that they just became incompatable. Also, my step sisters and previous step sisters parents all got divorces. It turned out for the better, also, one of my other cousins parents got a divorce, because it turned very abusive and now the parents are both re-married and living very happily. Im not going to list all my friends situations, but i can tell you right now that sometimes when somebody gets a divorce, its for the better. You can only try so much to make it work. If one person is not willing, its hardly a marriage anymore. The guy in this story left his wife because he did not love her. He was happier without her. She needs to find a guy who loves her and will not cheat on her and will never leave her.
Divorces actually can turn out for the better and im walking proof of it. :) Now im not advocating divorces, im just saying that sometimes its the thing to do.

And now that i have said that, there is no reason to continue debating about this. The lady lost her husband. Its a terrible shame, and i hope she will find love again and somebody who actually respects her and wants to be with her. But debating about marriage is not going to change the situation that happened to her. You know my position and i know yours. We need to stop debating, it will not change my mind that sometimes divorce is for the better, and im not here to change your mind either. Just simply telling you about it through personal experience. So, that being said, please top debating me and i will stop debating you. :thumbsup:

[/quote]

You do not seem to understand what love is.

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#54

[quote="1holycatholic, post:53, topic:211145"]
You do not seem to understand what love is.

[/quote]

Maybe if the people verbally beating each other up on these forums would show her, she would.

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#55

[quote="gretahope, post:54, topic:211145"]
Maybe if the people verbally beating each other up on these forums would show her, she would.

[/quote]

The link works.:shrug:

BlueShadow123's position is the same one used to justify homosexual "marriage" or abortion.

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#56

I do understand love. That is why I don't think anybody who gets a divorce was truly in love. Because love never dies. I also dont think that anybody who cheats on their spouse truly loves them. Real love is somebody who respects their vows till the day they die. Its sad that people have been breaking this more and more everyday. But i think that if somebody cheats on you, they do not deserve you because they broke something that was a promise till death. And in that case, I would want somebody who actually promised to me rather than half way through decides they dont want to respect me anymore. This is why i said the man didn't love her, because he broke his vows. Then you go to hint that maybe i am for abortion and gay marrige? When the heck did i ever say that? Actually in another thread i posted that i dont think homosexuality is natural. Wether you believe in evolution, or a god, it goes against nature and its just so... odd. Its completely opposite from what people are supposed to do. And abortion? I dont agree with it, but i also know that it will never stop.

So before you go and put words into my mouth, you should realize that you dont know me, which means you really shouldn't assume things. its not smart. anyways i wasn't trying to offend anybody here, but just rather give my 2 cents. i guess that was too much, wasn't it? If you are going to assume things about me that aren't even true, then please don't respond to me. thanks.

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#57

I’m not putting things in your mouth. In your defense of No Fault Divorce you are offering the same argument used to justify homosexual “marriage” or abortion.

You haven’t demonstrated that you understand love. :shrug:

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#58

I guess i could say the same for you. You haven’t demonstrated anything either. Just trying to tell me that you think you know this and that about me. I dont need to demonstrate love to you, because i don’t know you. If you think I need to demonstrate something to you, then you need to do the same to me.

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#59

[quote="BlueShadow123, post:58, topic:211145"]
Just trying to tell me that you think you know this and that about me.

[/quote]

I know what you've written in this thread. You are attempting to justify evil based on emotion.

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#60

[quote="1holycatholic, post:59, topic:211145"]
I know what you've written in this thread. You are attempting to justify evil based on emotion.

[/quote]

:shrug: You just don't get it.

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#61

[quote="BlueShadow123, post:60, topic:211145"]
:shrug: You just don't get it.

[/quote]

There's nothing to get. Your position is indefensible.

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#62

Um, yes it is, that is what I have been trying to tell you. I don’t understand how you do not see what I’m talking about.

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#63

[quote="BlueShadow123, post:62, topic:211145"]
Um, yes it is, that is what I have been trying to tell you. I don't understand how you do not see what I'm talking about.

[/quote]

What your position boils down to:
N no longer wants to be in the marriage so the divorce is warranted so they can be happy.
is no different than:
N no longer wants a child so the abortion is warranted so they can be happy.
or:
N wants to marry someone of the same sex so their action is warranted so they can be happy.

Merely wanting something doesn't make it a due good. As has been written before, love is not an emotion.

Exactly! Love a decision. The man in the OP article has the freedom to choose, but he doesn't have the right to choose evil. He chose a lifelong union in marriage, which is a good. His doesn't have the right to choose evil merely because his wants have changed.

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#64

[quote="BlueShadow123, post:58, topic:211145"]
I guess i could say the same for you. You haven't demonstrated anything either. Just trying to tell me that you think you know this and that about me. I dont need to demonstrate love to you, because i don't know you. If you think I need to demonstrate something to you, then you need to do the same to me.

[/quote]

Blue Shadow,
She is not saying that she knows things about you. She is saying things like, Your argument is the same one used to justify homosexual "marriage." You took that to mean that she was saying that you are for homosexual "marriage," right? But that's not what she said.

Now she is saying that you have an erroneous idea about love, which she is saying based on what you have written here. What you have written here shows an erroneous view of love, and she is respecting you enough to assume that you are writing what you believe rather than saying a bunch of stuff you don't believe.

If you were in Florida and someone came up to you and told you he was planning to head *south *to New York, would you not then assume he had the wrong idea about how to get to New York?

The reality is that what you have seen in your life and the things that people you love have done not only to themselves but to other people and to *you *has required that you justify what they have done rather than to "betray" them by "judging" their actions as immature. So you picked up and believed the ideas which are unfortunately rampant in our society as they would allow you to not have to consider the very real immaturity which has affected you and your friends and cousins but would instead allow you to carry on a relationship with all these adults in a sort of tenuous peace.

Let me add that I do believe that many people who carry on this way, the way your parents and other adults have, have *themselves *often had to do the same thing, which is why children whose homes are ripped apart by divorce so often divorce later in life. So I am not saying that your parents, et al, are necessarily *bad *people, just that what they are doing is a bad reaction to things with which they most likely had to deal with as they grew up. IOW, their actions are bad, but they themselves are more likely coping than being bad, iyswim.

I know a woman whose husband took to drinking a few years after they married. He didn't beat her or anything, but it did become difficult for him to keep a job, etc. Things were definitely going downhill.

Then he wrecked his car. While drunk. And he did not recover from this: he remained bedridden til the end of his life about 20 years later. He was not even all there mentally.

And his wife cared for him for those 20 years. She raised their sons, held the family together financially, and took care of him from the time she was in her mid-40s til she was retirement age. She took care of him even tho she herself was not doing well healthwise at the end because of serious arthritis which made it difficult for her to walk.

She changed his sheets around him, she bathed him in bed, she turned him so he wouldn't get bedsores. He could not get up to go to the bathroom, so she dealt with that.

She could not really "love" him in the sense that you mean, because the man she married was bardly there due to the head injuries, and yet she did not go off to find "happiness" with another man. She stuck with the man she married, *she fulfilled the vows she had made, *despite the fact that it was difficult and disgusting and hard.

You are saying that love with the right person will last forever, but that is not true. You are young and you have not seen what really happens because of the disruptions in your life, but that fleeting feeling of love is not true love.

True love is a decision to act in the best way possible for the other person. A decision which is made over and over and over again, even when you are annoyed with the other person, even when the other person is acting like a jerk for weeks, months, maybe even years on end. A decision which is made even when the other person no longer has the ability to please you, to contribute to the marriage.

Those feelings which society calls love are nothing, fleeting wisps, chemistry, infatuation, whatever, they are not love, because love requires *sacrifice. *Love is not wanting to go to bed with someone, love is understanding that that would be a bad thing to lead the loved one into before marriage. Love is not wanting to spend time with someone who happens to be someone else's spouse, love is staying away so as not to tempt someone else's spouse.

And love is even staying with a man who destroyed himself through his own foolishness because that is what you promised to do.

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