'No foetal pain before 24 weeks'

This is surprising, and controversial

There is no new evidence to show foetuses feel pain in the womb before 24 weeks, and so no reason to challenge the abortion limit, doctors say.

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists' review said foetuses are "undeveloped and sedated".

Brain connections are not fully formed, and the environment of the womb creates a state of induced sleep, like unconsciousness, they add.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/10403496.stm

No pain for almost the first two trimesters? Really?

The study comes amid efforts by some MPs - including Prime Minister David Cameron - to lower the existing abortion limit.

Mr Cameron argued in April that the time-limit for abortions should be cut to "20 or 22 weeks".

But on the issue of pain perception, the report says: "Connections from the periphery to the cortex are not intact before 24 weeks of gestation.

"As most neuroscientists believe the cortex is necessary for pain perception, it can be concluded the foetus cannot experience pain in any sense prior to this gestation."

It adds: "There is increasing evidence that the foetus never experiences a state of true wakefulness in utero and is kept, by the presence of its chemical environment, in a continuous sleep-like unconsciousness or sedation."

news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Abortion-Foetuses-Feel-No-Pain-Before-24-Weeks---Royal-College-Of-Obstetricians-and-Gynaecologists/Article/201006415654669?lpos=UK_News_Top_Stories_Header_0&lid=ARTICLE_15654669_Abortion%3A_Foetuses_Feel_No_Pain_Before_24_Weeks_-_Royal_College_Of_Obstetricians_and_Gynaecologists

[quote="Dale_M, post:1, topic:203200"]
This is surprising, and controversial

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/10403496.stm

No pain for almost the first two trimesters? Really?

[/quote]

I'm sure that these doctors would feel no pain what so ever should someome shoot them pointblank in the back of the head.They wouldn't even be aware they'd been shot a la "American Beauty"

So the THEORY is they can't feel pain-so what does that make murder,AKA abortion OK?There are people today who cannot experience physical pain,there are others that cannot experience fear-does that make it all right to murder them.

These people are clutching at straws,any straw to prove that the pre-born aren't human,aren't people..I certainly am not advocating shooting those doctors when they are unaware b ut what is the difference?Neither the baby nor doctor will experience pain and will be totally unaware that they are dead,until Jesus shows up.that but what would be the difference if inability(THEORY OF)to experience pain makes it just dandy to murder people.I remember when people said black people were incapable of feeling pain.This IS a human rights issue and we shall overcome and the abortionists and their supporters will end up on the trash heap of history along with the Nazi's s,totalitarian communists,KKK,racists,proponents of Jim Crow Laws.

In the future ther will be a museum devoted to shame and revulsion and the pro-murder camp will have its own wing.Much like the holocaust museums world wide.

My priest said a wonderful thing: The right to work in this country, the right to vote, none of it matters if humans are denied the right to be born. The "right" to have an abortion is itself a contradiction; the mother is in fact denying the baby all of his/her rights. There's an old saying, my right to punch someone ends at the other man's nose.

And what does pain have to do with murder??? It is such an excuse, I guess they finally realized they can't keep saying the baby isn't alive, so they've resorted to "oh well it can't feel pain." I am a mother and I could sure feel my baby kicking me before 24 weeks. My very first sonogram - at 6 weeks due to complications - showed me a beating heart. There wasn't much else formed yet but there was his beating heart, we even got to hear it. Why don't they show that to these mothers??

It wasn't all that long ago that it was beleived that new borns couldn't feel pain, and their screams was just their way of chattering. Operations of a painful nature were carried out on new borns without analgesia or sedation.

I've seen studies and heard from those with actual knowledge in this that premmies feel MORE pain than those born at full term.

I think its completely asanine to say abortion is okay at x week because the foetus doesn't feel pain. Its simply the pro-abortion lobby trying to keep abortion legal in a more liberally allowed fashioned. If there was a law that required abortionists to tell women the foetus they want to kill might or will feel pain and would she like analgesia for teh foetus before they murder the kid it might make the woman think twice.

Of course, it raises a sick point, the foetus is human enough to be given pain relief, but not human enough to be granted its very life?

These people will stop at nothing to further their murderous agenda. :(

Judge: how do you plead?

Defendant: well I killed him sure but hey I sedated him first so he wouldn't feel any pain.

Judge: we'll then so long as he didn't feel any pain - case dismissed!

I was listening to this report on the radio this morning.

Murder, however painless, whether the victim is aware or not, is still murder.

I remember clearly years ago when doctors constantly asserted that babies while being circumcised (without anaesthetic of course) felt no pain. I didn't believe them then. I remember seeing a more recent documentary showing a baby being circumcised - that baby let out the most agonizing scream.

I just met, this past weekend, a little boy born at 23 weeks.....so, apparently a baby can be "born" yet not feel pain.....:confused:

So what if a fetus cannot feel any pain prior to the 24th week. That does not change the fact that it is still very much a human being. In my opinion these doctors take what should be only a medical or scientific factoid that advances knowledge about the development of the human body and try to justify a horrible procedure with it. They have overstepped their bounds.

ChadS

That complete is garbage. The video "the silent scream" was done on a 12 week old fetus. If that's not evidence of pain then these "doctors" and "researchers" are mentally retarded. The fact is that the babies are able to feel at 8 weeks, take a look:

abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_14.asp

The "Silent Scream" film was debunked a long time ago (just google it).

my.opera.com/JoanRC/blog/2010/01/02/planned-parenthoods-critique-of-silent-scream-propaganda-film

If you want to make an argument based on science you need to use facts. The pro-life argument is basically that life begins at conception and pain doesn't matter. It is for the most part a theological argument. People who disagree with your theology aren't going to be swayed by misrepresentation of scientific facts.

[quote="roveau, post:8, topic:203200"]
I remember clearly years ago when doctors constantly asserted that babies while being circumcised (without anaesthetic of course) felt no pain. I didn't believe them then. I remember seeing a more recent documentary showing a baby being circumcised - that baby let out the most agonizing scream.

[/quote]

I've been to a briss. They feel it. . . . OUCH!

[quote="Dale_M, post:1, topic:203200"]
This is surprising, and controversial

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/10403496.stm

No pain for almost the first two trimesters? Really?

news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Abortion-Foetuses-Feel-No-Pain-Before-24-Weeks---Royal-College-Of-Obstetricians-and-Gynaecologists/Article/201006415654669?lpos=UK_News_Top_Stories_Header_0&lid=ARTICLE_15654669_Abortion%3A_Foetuses_Feel_No_Pain_Before_24_Weeks_-_Royal_College_Of_Obstetricians_and_Gynaecologists

[/quote]

Why would it matter??

[quote="Swan, post:12, topic:203200"]
The "Silent Scream" film was debunked a long time ago (just google it).

my.opera.com/JoanRC/blog/2010/01/02/planned-parenthoods-critique-of-silent-scream-propaganda-film

If you want to make an argument based on science you need to use facts. The pro-life argument is basically that life begins at conception and pain doesn't matter. It is for the most part a theological argument. People who disagree with your theology aren't going to be swayed by misrepresentation of scientific facts.

[/quote]

Actaully it is a scientific and biologic fact that life begins at concpetion so it appears you are the one misrepresnting scientific fact. That is not unusual for those promoting abortion. You hear all sorts of nonsense- like the child being part of the Mothers body or it is akin to a tumor or parasite. The truth is seperate distinct human life is presnt from the moment of concpetion.This is one area where science and theology agree completely.

So, at 168 days (24 weeks) there is no pain but on the 169th day, pain. :rolleyes:
Where do these people come from?!?!?!? :mad:

[quote="Swan, post:12, topic:203200"]
If you want to make an argument based on science you need to use facts.

[/quote]

Alrighty then,

[quote=Patton et al., Intro. to Basic Neurology, W. B. Saunders Co. 1976, p. 178]The cortex isn’t needed to feel pain. The thalamus is needed and IS functioning at 8 weeks. Even complete removal of the cortex does not eliminate the sensation of pain.
[/quote]

[quote="Cup_o_Joe, post:17, topic:203200"]
Alrighty then,

[/quote]

erm... I am not sure where to take a stand on this. But the article you cite is 34 years old. Presumably, we have learned more since then.

Painless murder is still murder.

I highly doubt the thalamus has changed its function since then anyway. At pro life offices there's a red booklet called "abortion and fetal pain" it's about 30 pages and goes into great detail about the fact that babies can feel at 8 weeks and do exercises by 11 weeks. Anyone who sees the video "window to the womb" knows that a baby is a baby from conception.

But as Luigi Daniele said painless murder is still murder.

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