No Hell,


#1

If I understand correctly, Some groups such as the Seventh Day Advents, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,JW, do not beleive in hell. Could someone tell them how they come to this conclusion?


#2

JW’s argue that hell is “the grave” so when a person dies, it’s as if he just doesn’t exist - or he’s in a deep sleep. They use the verse in Eccl 9:5:

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

[size=3]They also say that Jesus would not have raised anyone from the dead if being dead was a good thing (they were in heaven) because it would be awful to remove someone from heaven. So… they say Lazarus and the young girl, when dead, were just “asleep.”

Eventually they believe that bad people (all non-JW’s) will be thrown into the “lake of fire” and burned up one time - not an eternity.

Where do they get all that from? Same place they get everything else. They make it up.

[/size]


#3

Doesn’t sound made up to me, rather, it sounds like the bible offers us several views on death. The Torah, for example, notes nothing other than the Sheol, or grave. In fact, many books of the Hebrew bible show absolutely no conception of the soul. “From dust man was drawn and to dust man will return”. This is why ideas of the afterlife are very diverse in Judaism.

Hell is a later concept, its biblical because it underlies the assumptions of some of the books but definitely not all. Sounds like the JW’s are using both early Old Testament and later developments regarding death, can’t blame them for being thorough.


#4

Mormons believe that there are three heavens or “degrees of glory”. The lowest degree, the “telestial kingdom” is where really bad people go (murderers, thieves, whoremongers, and all who love and make a lie). Brigham Young, second “prophet” of the Mormon church, said that the telestial kingdom is so glorious and beautiful that if we caught a glimpse of it we would commit suicide just to get there. Mormons believe in a place called “outer darkness” that is sort of similar to the Christian idea of hell in that those who end up there are completely cut off from the presence of all of the Mormon gods. But they believe that very few individuals will end up there - Satan and his demons, Cain, Judas and those who leave the Mormon church (like me :smiley: ). Some Mormons speculate that once consigned to outer darkness, the individual will begin to disintegrate and will eventually cease to exist. These are very attractive doctrines compared to the eternal torment that Christianity teaches. Too bad they’re not true.
God bless,
Paul


#5

the Seventh Day adventists have taken the term sleep (meaning death), litterally, they believe when someone dies, their soul is asleep hence the term “soul sleep” and they will awake during the second comming of christ.

But I read some where the term sleep is used to describe the posture of the body not the soul. I Hope I’m not wrong. The story of Lazarus and the rich man talks about what happens to a soul before th death of christ.


#6

I don’t believe in an eternal hell. In my profile I say I’m a “Recovering Catholic” but I am really just a lapsed Catholic who still finds Catholicism atttractive in many ways.

If God is Love Itself as scripture says and as the Catholic Church teaches (cf. 1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16), then God cannot but help love all all the time, even Satan. So if you got to Hell and there’s a way to rescue you, you can bet God will rescue you and you can bet that there is a way to be rescued since God is all powerful love; love conquers all.

This is a doctrine (of theologians, not the Church) called “apokatastasis”:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apokatastasis

It was taught by some Church Fathers (such as Origen, though partly because of this he is sometimes not counted by some Catholics as a Church Father)

Perhaps some of you Catholics and others could tell me why you think God wouldn’t give everyone a second, third, fourth, and fifth chance if He is Love Itself as the Bible and Church teach? Also how do you interpret the scripture that God will be “all in all.” If Satan is not going to be in heaven one day, God couldn’t be all in all as scripture says (cf 1 Corinthians 15:28)


#7

God DOES give many opportunities to return to Grace. That’s what confession, reconciliation, and forgiveness of sins is all about. Your speculation about chances after physical death, though, can’t be taken as true, because we have no revealed truth about this. We are told that after physical death, there won’t be any more chances.

Personally, I don’t think there is much profit in speculating about these things. God has chosen to reveal what he has chosen to reveal. There may be a lot more to it that we don’t know because he has chosen not to reveal it to us. There is enough that he HAS revealed to keep us busy for many lifetimes, and enough that we can be assured that if we obey Him through the Church that he left behind to guide us to salvation, everything is going to be OK. It may seem simplistic for someone who is prone to want answers to all the details, but I feel like people overthink this sort of thing.


#8

Many people make God a single attributed God. Besides being a loving God, He is also Holy, Just, Creator, Infinite, etc…

If someone murdered your family member, and the judge turned a blind eye to it, you would call him a corrupt judge.

God is not a corrupt judge, He will make sure murderers, rapist, and the like get justice. He is so just, he will judge liars as well.

**

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death

Revelation 20

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

**

His love is demonstrated on the cross.

**

1 John 3:16

By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

**

God is loving and waits patiently for people to turn to Him. Eventually, time will run out, and He will judge the world in His fairness and justice.

Because of His justice, He has to punish sin. Because of His love, Christ paid the price for you and offers this payment as a free gift if you repent and except Christ in your heart. Then the blood will be applied to your heart and Death will passover you like death passed over the doors of those with the lamb’s blood in Egypt.

If He is called a Savior, what is He saving you from ?

**

Mark 9

43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

**


#9

God gives us many chances. Some remain steadfast in their choice of separation from the vision of God in heaven. In the end, God respects that choice. Try reading The Great Divorce wonderful book

I think God is all in all, right now. He is in the eternal now. As long as we are in time, we can’t understand this but everything is (or to us, “will be”) right where it belongs, in eternity.

He is sovereign of the universe, it’s all his, including the wayward angels and creatures. But he’s not forcing himslef on anybody. If “non serviam” is how you want to spend eternity, then he’ll let that be.


#10

God is not merely loving; he is Love Itself. The bible doesn’t just say that God is loving; it says “God is love.” (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)

So God is infinitely loving, Love Itself. It’s not a mere attribute; it is who He is as a person or as three divine persons.

If someone murdered your family member, and the judge turned a blind eye to it, you would call him a corrupt judge.

If someone murdered a family member, I would be called to have compassion on the murderer and pray for his conversion and well-being. I may want him to be in prison for his own sake, so that he might have the opportunity to do penance or be rehabilitated and also for the good and safety of society.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death

It doesn’t say they will be there forever though.

Revelation 20

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The literal translation of the Greek is not “for ever and ever” but rather “unto the ages of ages” or "for the eons of eons"
You can google this. I did and I found this link:

tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

(haven’t read it, but it looks good)

If He is called a Savior, what is He saving you from ?

He saves people by setting a good example for us to follow, saving us from moral wickedness.


#11

They can’t accept the fact that a loving God would also punish unrepentant sinners, so they create a doctrine that they are comfortable with.


#12

Yes, God is Love. And His Love will ensure justice is done. This is not the point.

If someone murdered a family member, I would be called to have compassion on the murderer and pray for his conversion and well-being. I may want him to be in prison for his own sake, so that he might have the opportunity to do penance or be rehabilitated and also for the good and safety of society.

I asked what you would think of a judge who lets a proven murderer go free. Not what you think of the murderer.

It doesn’t say they will be there forever though.

I was giving the context that the second death is the lake of fire. The verse I showed after shows how long it lasts. You can ignore it if you must?

The literal translation of the Greek is not “for ever and ever” but rather “unto the ages of ages” or “for the eons of eons”

You can google this. I did and I found this link:

tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

(haven’t read it, but it looks good)

So when does ages of ages end.

He saves people by setting a good example for us to follow, saving us from moral wickedness.

Christ sets the perfect example, but His salvation came from the cross.

Why did He die on the cross then if all we needed was a moral example.

So you are saved from moral wickedness? Have you told a lie? Have you looked with lust (Matt 5), Jesus considers this adultery?

**

Luke 16

19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Mark 9

42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

**

What kind of a place would be worse than having our eyes plucked out and our hands cut off.


#13

Its all about the kind of person you turn yourself into if in the end I turn myself into the kind of person who hates God (goodness) then when I die. Since I will still have free will I will flee from God and what will I find when I have run away from my last end the source of all joy and happiness simply and solely hell. Incidentaly this is one of the doctrines that makes me most disposed to think the Catholic claim is true. Since it makes the whole process of life organic rather than artificial like human justice systems.


#14

What makes more sense:

God created a big fiery cave that just happens to look a lot like Hades, and that’s where he deliberately sends sinners, which is okay because he warned us…

or…

“Hell” is simply an emergent property of death without salvation-- a state of being that is somehow devoid of God’s presence and therefore extremely undesireable and he warns us about Hell in a sense more akin to “look out for that ledge” versus “this is how I’m going to punish you if you’re bad.”
?


#15

I’m glad we agree that God is Love.

I asked what you would think of a judge who lets a proven murderer go free. Not what you think of the murderer.

OK, I’ll try to answer again. I would think the judge would be derelict in his responsibilities since he has a duty to offer the murderer a suitable avenue for penance and rehabilitation and also a duty to protect society from the murderer and to continue the deterrent value of punishment in society for other would-be murderers.

If God were to let someone who doesn’t love God into heaven, then heaven would be imperfect; the perfect happiness and love of heaven would be disrupted by the ugliness of the lack of love in that person. I don’t believe God lets people who don’t love Him into heaven. I believe that those who don’t love Him don’t go to heaven but that as scripture says in the Old Testament even if a mother forgets a child, God will not forget you and so God does not abandon those who suffer the fate of some kind of hell. If possible – and all things are possible to God according to Mary’s words in Luke – God will bring the sinners in Hell to love Him eventually and God will be “all in all”

So when does ages of ages end.

I don’t know. I don’t really know how God rescues people from Hell – how He does it is up to Him. He may use the prayers of the saints to minister His mercy (this was Jacques Maritain’s conjecture) or do it on his own sovereign power.

Why did He die on the cross then if all we needed was a moral example.

He set a moral example on the cross by obeying his Father’s plan.

I don’t really know how Jesus death on the cross relates to salvation. There may be some mystical way it is a sacrifice (Catholicism teaches it is a sacrifice) but I think these things are really beyond our present understanding, at least mine.

There are a lot of beliefs I used to believe in firmly as a Catholic that I am no longer certain of. I guess I’ll find out when I die one of these days.

So you are saved from moral wickedness?

Yes you are saved from a state of being devoid of love and brought to a state of being full of love. Scripture describes this as God’s love being “poured” into our hearts.

What kind of a place would be worse than having our eyes plucked out and our hands cut off.

I’m willing to believe that a terrible fate awaits those who are devoid of the love of God, but I don’t think it will last forever. It will last forever as long as they are devoid of love but I don’t think God will leave them in the state of being devoid of love. Does that make sense?


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