No need to convert to Catholicism!


#1

If Protestants are already a part of the Catholic Church as Vatican II teaches. Then there is no need to convert.

I am still confused because accroding to Fr. Michael Muller C.SS.R. he taught in his book The Catholic Dogma, that invicible ignorance will not save Protestants and non-Catholics.

Also, the Congregation for the Faith (see: Catholic Replies) Drummey says (pp 99-100) that a strict interpetation to:

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

Can be held as also a liberal one too! Which is it?

Protestants are saved?

Protestants are human beings!

I am confused!

BobbyBaptist


#2

[quote=BobbyBaptist]If Protestants are already a part of the Catholic Church as Vatican II teaches. Then there is no need to convert.

I am still confused because accroding to Fr. Michael Muller C.SS.R. he taught in his book The Catholic Dogma, that invicible ignorance will not save Protestants and non-Catholics.

Also, the Congregation for the Faith (see: Catholic Replies) Drummey says (pp 99-100) that a strict interpetation to:

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

Can be held as also a liberal one too! Which is it?

Protestants are saved?

Protestants are human beings!

I am confused!

BobbyBaptist
[/quote]

The way I understand it is that invincible ignorance is not a blameworthy condition for someone well disposed towards the Gospel message. In that case if that person had been exposed to the Gospel truth they would have accepted it.


#3

Hey BobbyBaptist!

If we are saved it is by the Grace of God. Only God knows the hearts. He is the one who knows if a person stayed out of the catholic church because of ignorance of the thruth or by other reasons!

G. Grace


#4

[quote=Gratias Grace]Hey BobbyBaptist!

If we are saved it is by the Grace of God. Only God knows the hearts. He is the one who knows if a person stayed out of the catholic church because of ignorance of the thruth or by other reasons!

G. Grace
[/quote]

Ah, but those who have found their way to this forum cannot claim invincible ignorance, now can they?http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


#5

[quote=vern humphrey]Ah, but those who have found their way to this forum cannot claim invincible ignorance, now can they?forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
[/quote]

Like Grace said, only God knows. We can understand some of the factors involved. For example do you know that when we first emerge into the world, that in our first months of consciousness it’s possible, well, really probable that our heart accepts it’s first distortions of reality in order to find relief from anxiety our mothers aren’t resolving for us. Not that she lacks the desire, she just doesn’t know, she lacks the love to know, her mother wasn’t able to relieve those anxieties either since our lives have taken a direction that doesn’t offer that kind of maternal care. So in the frustration and rage of coming into a world that offers rejection unnoticed, human babies accept the lie because it seems more like life, it brings peace. Satan comes as an angel of light that soon in our lives. This is a place God knows who we are. Invincible ignorance runs deep for all of us. But then like Grace said only God knows.


#6

I like to think of it this way…

If a person were to go to heaven and they were informed that the Catholic Church was the true Church that Christ established and their response is humble acceptence and not anger, then they have a good chance of going to heaven.

In other words, is your heart open to the truth or is your hated so strong that once you encounter the truth you would rather keep on believing a lie.

If a person were to respond to my question, “would you ever become Catholic if shown it is the truth” with “I would never, ever, in a million years become Catholic!” This person in my understanding is in dire straights because their heart is hardened.


#7

Although “‘many elements of sanctification and of truth’ are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: ‘the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements,’” and although “Christ’s Spirit uses these [non-Catholic] Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation,” if you want access to “the fullness of the means of salvation … all the blessings of the New Covenant … the fullness of grace and truth,” then it would be in your best interest to make perfect that imperfect communion you already enjoy with the Catholic Church because all of these good gifts from God can be obtained in their fullness “through Christ’s Catholic Church alone.” (see Catechism of the Catholic Church, 816-819)


#8

[size=3][font=Times New Roman]If Protestants are already a part of the Catholic Church as Vatican II teaches. Then there is no need to convert.

[/size] [/font]Your first sentence is an oversimplification, resulting in an erroneous conclusion. Jesus prayed that “they may be one”. Either we, as Catholics, are one, or the Father did not answer Jesus’ prayer. **(Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822) **


Catholicism also teaches that she has the fullness of faith, with the evidence thereof. She bears the four marks of God: One, Holy, Catholic or universal, and Apostolic. That should be reason enough to convert.

[size=3][font=Times New Roman]I am still confused because accroding to Fr. Michael Muller C.SS.R. he taught in his book The Catholic Dogma, that invicible ignorance will not save Protestants and non-Catholics.

[/size] [/font] I believe you are misreading what he is saying because you are taking it out of its historical context. The Catholic Church had not yet clarified and further defined “No Salvation Outside the Church” when this book was written, and that is one reason she held a council: to clear things up. Many traditionalists are still upset by the development of the Church. They want to see her remain exclusive and ineffectual. The ones who whine about the Church’s expansion (not changing) of this doctrine also whine about the Novus Ordo Mass, and the legitimacy of Vatican II. Stay away from these rebels! The dissent they sow bears the fruit of involuntary doubt, which can lead to a loss of faith, leading to a violation of the 1st Commandment!

[size=3][font=Times New Roman]Also, the Congregation for the Faith (see: Catholic Replies) Drummey says (pp 99-100) that a strict interpetation to:

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

Can be held as also a liberal one too! Which is it?

Protestants are saved?

Protestants are human beings!

I am confused

[/size] ![/font]

Ultra-traditionalist literature like the book you are reading has confused many Catholics. Protestants can be saved, and the Church is a lot bigger than what these rad-trads want us to believe. That means the Church is not confined to the Church on earth. No one goes to the Father but by Jesus, and who are we to tell Him how to do His job! He tells us through the Magisterium, and it’s been that way from the beginning!

One more thing, bobby. Catholics can disagree on something, and theologians can question any doctrine, within very large parameters. Then the Church considers everything, and seeks the truth on the matter, then the Pope writes an encyclical. When Protestants disagree on something, they divide. We develop, Protestants divide. That’s why our teachings seem so complex. 2000 years of development. That’s another reason to convert. Here is a good link that will clarify things about all this “No Salvation Outside the Church” stuff.

www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT

150 Reasons Why I am a Catholic
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ103.HTM

kepha1


#9

Muller is wrong he is a feeneyite, who believes one has to always have water baptism and explicit faith to be saved…the holy office, under Pius XII dealt with this by issuing a letter stating that “faith need not always be explicit” in order for salvation to occur…however Protestants do need to convert because, despite what some may think, they are in a Church that will not lead them to salvation, and the only way they could be saved is if they are invicibly ignorant… (see my thread on invincible ignorant) that is ignorant of the Church’s teaching and the ignorance is not their fault… of course one cannot tell if another is invincibly ignorant or not…people who cite the catechism and stretch its meaning because the catechism states that Christ uses other Churches as means of salvation… well i do not believe that means they are saved because of the church they are in … the catechism is saying that christ brings other christains closer to the Catholic church by using other churches sometimes…if u look at the totality of church documents u will absolutely see that Protestanism saves no one and one does need to convert… it is imperative… cause u may run the risk of goiong to hell… i wouldnt want to take the chance on being invincibly ignorant…


#10

[quote=vern humphrey]Ah, but those who have found their way to this forum cannot claim invincible ignorance, now can they?http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
[/quote]

If this forum had existed while I still was a lutheran I would have felt so fed up with different ideas that I would have had to ask God for strength to stay out of it while He was guiding me.

But I get your point. The information about the catholic church is avaliable, and people must try to find the right path (wich I believe is the Roman Catholic Church)!

God bless!

G.Grace


#11

Bobby,

I have a simple answer and I offer a gift - the Eucharist. If what the Catholic Church teaches is true (Transubstantiation), then it is the greatest gift that Jesus left to His followers. The possibility is certainly worth looking into, wouldn’t you agree? If even the possibility exists that Transubstantiation is the truth, then an examination of the Catholic Church’s case (through study of Scripture and the writings of the early Fathers of the Church) certainly wouldn’t hurt.

Blesssings


#12

There is a normative necessity to be card-carrying member of the Catholic Church, but not an absolute necessity. Just like there is a only a normative necessity to wear a helmet and flak jacket when going into combat–but woe to him who does not.

Scott


#13

[quote=marineboy].if u look at the totality of church documents u will absolutely see that Protestanism saves no one.
[/quote]

You are totally stone deaf winternet.com/~mikelr/flame78.html arent you.

Just in case you are not sure I will put the two points right next to each other.


marineboy quote
but my main point in my earlier post was to state Protestanism is a false form of Christinity and saves no one…


CCC 819

Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation,

Just in case you are not sure I will put the two points right next to each other.

All of us other posters are not stretching anything. You are trying to put your own slant on the Catechism.

GET A GRIP AND LEARN CHURCH TEACHING


#14

[quote=marineboy]well i do not believe that means they are saved because of the church they are in
[/quote]

The keyword being I.

Quite frankly I hope any protestant enquirers here totally ignore you for the misguided, ill informed, blind individual you are.

If it seems you annoy me it is because I know the damage your type can do to protestant enquirers, ironic given you would like them to join us.


#15

[quote=marineboy]if u look at the totality of church documents .
[/quote]

Which you don’t. You pick and choose to suit your own ends. Much like the reformers did, again, ironically
:eek:


#16

Besides if you are Protestant or Jewish to begin with you don’t “convert” to Catholicism.

You “complete”.


#17

BobbyBaptist,

You must read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and interpret it “with the mind” of the Church–not yours or any other men or women who have no authority in the Catholic Church.

I pretty much understand why there are so many Protestants out there who are confused of Catholic teachings because of some/or many who call themselves Catholics but yet deep inside are anti-Catholics. So if in doubt–consult the Magisterium of the Holy Church. They are the official interpreter of Catholic teachings.

Pio


#18

[quote=Benadam]The way I understand it is that invincible ignorance is not a blameworthy condition for someone well disposed towards the Gospel message. In that case if that person had been exposed to the Gospel truth they would have accepted it.
[/quote]

If only it were that easy. I had five years of graduate theological training in a Catholic seminary and I still left the Catholic church for a time. I knew what the Catholic church taught, and I had once believed it. At the time I left (actually drifted), I gradually believed that what the Catholic church taught was in error, and that the basics of what Evangelical Protestants taught was the truth. I thought I was doing right even though I knew that the Catholic Church taught that “outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.”


#19

JGC-------THE CATECHISM SAYS that Christ uses Protestant churches as means of salvation… i agree !! that doesnt mean that those churches save the person----christ uses those churches and their partial truths to bring men closer to the one true church where salvation lies----Protestanism doesnt save… how can it it is a heresy—can ariansim save, or modalism, mormonsim, donatism…,well neitheR can PROTESTANISM


#20

[quote=4 marks]If only it were that easy. I had five years of graduate theological training in a Catholic seminary and I still left the Catholic church for a time. I knew what the Catholic church taught, and I had once believed it. At the time I left (actually drifted), I gradually believed that what the Catholic church taught was in error, and that the basics of what Evangelical Protestants taught was the truth. I thought I was doing right even though I knew that the Catholic Church taught that “outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.”
[/quote]

as you drifted you began to see the Church was in error. What kind of transition? from doubt of RC to consideration of Evangelical?
Interesting that the boundaries of the church had importance to you


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