No Real Presence of Jesus Christ in Protestant Churches


#1

Due to lack of Holy Orders, or Sacraments. Most Protestant Churches lack the Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

Only the two large main Christian body which is both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church maintain Holy Orders and valid Sacraments. Therefore, these Churches have Real Presence of Jesus in the form of Bread and Wine, which has become Jesus Christ. For His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity is there but hidden in the appearance of Unleaven Bread (leaven Bread / E. Rite/Orthodox).

Though there are Protestant Tradition that have bishops in the Anglican Churches and Episcopalian, they do not have valid sacrament since the Church of England broke their union with Rome during the Reformations.

There is some presence of Jesus Christ but only in Spiritual form in the communities founded in the Protestant Churches but they lack Real Presence of Jesus Christ. I have been approached several times by Non-Catholic Christians to go to to alter in an Non-Denomination Church and I said to myself. "Why should I join this Church since this Church lack the Blessed Lord’s Real Presence? I cannot. So I remain Catholic. The Jesus’ Presence in the Blessed Sacrament is the only that has kept me Catholic.

If I leave, where will I go? Maybe I can go as far as the Eastern Orthodox Church. Yet I remain a Catholic.

For you Non-Catholic Christians who want us to leave our Church, convince us why we should leave. For I tell you there is no Real Presence of Jesus in your Church. Not One.


#2

Jesus declared wherever two or more are gathered in my Name, there am I. So yes, in that sense, He is spiritually present whenever his followers of any denomination gather to praise and worship him and invoke His Name. He is present in their midst in their fellowship with one another, and in the charity they show to others. He is present in their obedience to his commandments. He is present in the proclamation of the Word because He is the Word. He is sacramentally present, however, Body Blood Soul and Divinity only within the Eucharist in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated by a validly ordained priest of either the CAtholic or Orthodox Church. I have no doubt that he honors and hears the prayers of those denominations who gather for the purpose of a memorial celebration of the Lord’s Supper, even though this action is merely a recollection of, not a participation in, the Last Supper and the Sacrifice of Calvary. But no, however much he may be present spiritually he is not and cannot be present to them sacramentally because he himself has said so, and defined how that Presence is to be made real.


#3

Note in the post I posted that His Spiritual Presence is there.

Let quote John 6:55-60

55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. 60 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum."

Most Protestants have turn this part of the passage that He was speaking Symbolically. But Jesus indeed said, “My flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.”

If the Eucharistic is merely Symbolic then there is no real presence because the Bread is just Bread, and the Wine is just wine. That is contrary to what Jesus said in John’s Gospel. So like I said, there is no real presence of Jesus Christ in the Protestant Churches because Holy Communion is only a piece of bread, and his wine is just wine (in some just grape juice).

Yes, Jesus is present when people are Gathered in His Name. His Spiritual Presence is there but Not Real Presence in way you can actually Eat the Body and Blood of the Lord.


#4

This was obviously posted to propagate an argument with the many non-Catholics here. You seem to be that kind of individual in the short time I have been here. What you have stated is an abject lie that the Catholic church has used to attempt to keep their members intact. The real truth is that Jesus is where two or more are gathered. There is nothing whatsoever in scripture that suggests that only Catholics and Orthodoxs have the real presence of Christ, nothing at all. I am absolutely sick of this badgering and it is one of the main reasons why I left the Catholic church. You can’t do whatever you wish to whomever you wish throughout history and just claim that God ordained it to be and if someone disagrees then they are automatically wrong. Anyone can claim to be anything but it doesn’t make it so.


#5

We have the sacrament of baptism, which even the Catholic Church acknowledges is valid. So we do have the sacraments.

Though there are Protestant Tradition that have bishops in the Anglican Churches and Episcopalian, they do not have valid sacrament since the Church of England broke their union with Rome during the Reformations.

In Rome’s opinion. The Anglican Church, of course, has a different opinion, as does Orthodoxy when it comes to the Pope.

There is some presence of Jesus Christ but only in Spiritual form in the communities founded in the Protestant Churches but they lack Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

I suspect having Jesus in spiritual form is more than enough, and more than any of us deserve.

If I leave, where will I go? Maybe I can go as far as the Eastern Orthodox Church. Yet I remain a Catholic.

Why would you even consider leaving?

For you Non-Catholic Christians who want us to leave our Church, convince us why we should leave. For I tell you there is no Real Presence of Jesus in your Church. Not One.

Who has asked you to leave? And where two or three are gathered - Jesus is there. By the mystery and power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus is everpresent in our lives, and never leaves us orphaned.

And you say “Not one.” Not one what?

O+


#6

This is also one of the reasons I left the Catholic church (not to go to a different church, I wasn’t seduced away by anything, I chose to leave Catholicism)

I felt that the church is permeated with an unholy pride. If God or Christ chooses to reveal themselves, or to be present either in Spirit or body with anyone, anywhere, anytime…they may. Whether it is sanctioned by Catholicism or not.

I feel that the Catholic church has moved into an area that borders on magic and certainly is within the definition of superstition…that only a person blessed by a person, blessed by a person, blessed by an apostle with the magic words and chrism…can say the exact certain words to transform bread and wine(and exact recipe of bread and a certain type of wine) into the real body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ.

Belief, intent, honor, and respect…don’t matter. It’s all in the “magic”.

Yes, I believe in the Real Presence. I just cannot be part of an institution that crows about how “we got it and you aint”…because if Christ wants, He can certainly share himself with any and all of His creation.

And yes…I do mean “crow” because I heard it over and over and over again as a Catholic.

I suppose you believe that Christ does want to share himself with all creation…through the Catholic church. I heard plenty of that too, and how sad it was that everyone else wouldn’t swallow their pride and come,repentent, to the doors.

I’d rather not have it all, and walk humbly with the lord, than be part of an institution that is so proud of having it all, and reminding everyone else that they have only dribs and drabs. Thinking you have it all…of anything…is always dangerous territory. And most of all, when you make that claim about God.

I do not want you to leave the church Manny. I want the church to take on the mantle of humility. It is compatible with truth. Humility IS truth. God will do what God will do, with all of His creation, it is not all dependant upon the right formulas being muttered by people who had the right formula muttered over them. That is reducing God to a puppet.

I’d rather throw myself on Divine mercy outside the bounds of those sorts of teachings, than to willingly participate in that view of the Divine.

By all means, enjoy being in the real presence, but don’t get too smug about how it is denied to everyone else. Maybe God has plans for them too.


#7

I just want to say thank you to ACBishop and Cheddarsox for their comments.
I chose to say nothing about this thread because of what ACBishop said

This was obviously posted to propagate an argument with the many non-Catholics here

I see no point in arguing.:thumbsup:


#8

You constantly quote John 6 out of context.

They were not satisified with being fed, they asked for more miracles. Jesus told them:

**

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

**

They pushed Him some more.

He also said:

**

John 6

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

**

The context of John 6 is to believe in Him.

Jesus is present in Christian Churches that gather truely in His name.

**

John 4:23-24
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

**

He already dwells in the hearts of believers.

**

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

**

Why do you then have to re-receive him at every mass. Does he leave you so often?


#9

“Though there are Protestant Tradition that have bishops in the Anglican Churches and Episcopalian, they do not have valid sacrament since the Church of England broke their union with Rome during the Reformations.”

I’d guess that you are not intimately familiar with what *Apostolicae Curae * says on the subject.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus


#10

**Scripture

I. Old Testament**

(a). Foreshadowing of the Eucharistic Sacrifice

Gen. 14:18 - this is the first time that the word “priest” is used in Old Testament. Melchizedek is both a priest and a king and he offers a bread and wine sacrifice to God.

Psalm 76:2 - Melchizedek is the king of Salem. Salem is the future Jeru-salem where Jesus, the eternal priest and king, established his new Kingdom and the Eucharistic sacrifice which He offered under the appearance of bread and wine.

Psalm 110:4 - this is the prophecy that Jesus will be the eternal priest and king in the same manner as this mysterious priest Melchizedek. This prophecy requires us to look for an eternal bread and wine sacrifice in the future. This prophecy is fulfilled only by the Eucharistic sacrifice of the Catholic Church.

**Malachi 1:11 - this is a prophecy of a pure offering that will be offered in every place from the rising of the sun to its setting. Thus, there will be only one sacrifice, but it will be offered in many places around the world. This prophecy is fulfilled only by the Catholic Church in the Masses around the world, where the sacrifice of Christ which transcends time and space is offered for our salvation. If this prophecy is not fulfilled by the Catholic Church, then Malachi is a false prophet. **

Exodus 29:38-39 – God commands the Israelites to “offer” (poieseis) the lambs upon the altar. The word “offer” is the same verb Jesus would use to institute the Eucharistic offering of Himself.

**Lev. 19:22 – the priests of the old covenant would make atonement for sins with the guilt offering of an animal which had to be consumed. Jesus, the High Priest of the New Covenant, has atoned for our sins by His one sacrifice, and He also must be consumed. **

**Jer. 33:18 - God promises that His earthly kingdom will consist of a sacrificial priesthood forever. This promise has been fulfilled by the priests of the Catholic Church, who sacramentally offer the sacrifice of Christ from the rising of the sun to its setting in every Mass around the world. **

Zech. 9:15-16 - this is a prophecy that the sons of Zion, which is the site of the establishment of the Eucharistic sacrifice, shall drink blood like wine and be saved. This prophecy is fulfilled only by the priests of the Catholic Church.

2 Chron. 26:18 - only validly consecrated priests will be able to offer the sacrifice to God. The Catholic priests of the New Covenant trace their sacrificial priesthood to Christ.

www.scripturecatholic.com

.


#11

(b). Foreshadowing of the Requirement to Consume the Sacrifice

Gen. 22:9-13 - God saved Abraham’s first-born son on Mount Moriah with a substitute sacrifice which had to be consumed. This foreshadowed the real sacrifice of Israel’s true first-born son (Jesus) who must be consumed.

Exodus 12:5 - the paschal lamb that was sacrificed and eaten had to be without blemish. Luke 23:4,14; John 18:38 - Jesus is the true paschal Lamb without blemish.

Exodus 12:7,22-23 - the blood of the lamb had to be sprinkled on the two door posts. This paschal sacrifice foreshadows the true Lamb of sacrifice and the two posts of His cross on which His blood was sprinkled.

Exodus 12:8,11 - the paschal lamb had to be eaten by the faithful in order for God to “pass over” the house and spare their first-born sons. Jesus, the true paschal Lamb, must also be eaten by the faithful in order for God to forgive their sins.

Exodus 12:43-45; Ezek. 44:9 - no one outside the “family of God” shall eat the lamb. Non-Catholics should not partake of the Eucharist until they are in full communion with the Church.

Exodus 12:49 - no uncircumcised person shall eat of the lamb. Baptism is the new circumcision for Catholics, and thus one must be baptized in order to partake of the Lamb.

Exodus 12:47; Num. 9:12 - the paschal lamb’s bones could not be broken. John 19:33 - none of Jesus’ bones were broken.

Exodus 24:9-11 - the Mosaic covenant was consummated with a meal in the presence of God. The New and eternal Covenant is consummated with the Eucharistic meal - the body and blood of Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.

**Exodus 29:33 – God commands that they shall eat those things with which atonement was made. Jesus is the true Lamb of atonement and must now be eaten. **

Lev. 7:15 - the Aaronic sacrifices absolutely had to be eaten in order to restore communion with God. These sacrifices all foreshadow the one eternal sacrifice which must also be eaten to restore communion with God. This is the Eucharist (from the Greek word “eukaristia” which means “thanksgiving”).

Lev. 17:11,14 - in the Old Testament, we see that the life of the flesh is the blood which could never be drunk. In the New Testament, Jesus Christ’s blood is the source of new life, and now must be drunk.

Gen. 9:4-5; Deut.12:16,23-24 - in these verses we see other prohibitions on drinking blood, yet Jesus commands us to drink His blood because it is the true source of life.

**2 Chron. 30:15-17; 35:1,6,11,13; Ezra 6:20-21; Ezek. 6:20-21- the lamb was killed, roasted and eaten to atone for sin and restore communion with God. This foreshadows the true Lamb of God who was sacrificed for our sin and who must now be consumed for our salvation. **

Neh. 9:15 – God gave the Israelites bread from heaven for their hunger, which foreshadows the true heavenly bread who is Jesus.

**Isaiah 53:7 - this verse foreshadows the true Lamb of God who was slain for our sins and who must be consumed. **

Wis. 16:20 - this foreshadows the true bread from heaven which will be suited to every taste. All will be welcome to partake of this heavenly bread, which is Jesus Christ.

Zech. 12:10 - this foreshadows the true first-born Son who was pierced for the sins of the inhabitants of the new Jerusalem.

See also Sir. 24:21 Ezek. 2:8-10; 3:1-3 Zech. 13:1 Psalm 78:24-25; 105:40 Exodus 16:4-36; Neh 9:15 Exodus 12:14,17,24; cf. 24:8


#12

Well lets see ACBishop ignores the Scriptures quoted him but assure us there is nothing in Scripture to support the real presnece and Cheddarsox dismisses the Chuch as charlatans preaching magic BUT says he is not encouraging anyone to leave it.(I guess us beleivers in magic can stay put until we get enlightened like him) Yea well said=not


#13

**II. New Testament

(a). Jesus Promises His Real Presence in the Eucharist**

John 6:4,11-14 - on the eve of the Passover, Jesus performs the miracle of multiplying the loaves. This was prophesied in the Old Testament (e.g., 2 Kings4:43), and foreshadows the infinite heavenly bread which is Him.

Matt. 16:12 - in this verse, Jesus explains His metaphorical use of the term “bread.” In John 6, He eliminates any metaphorical possibilities.

John 6:4 - Jesus is in Capernaum on the eve of Passover, and the lambs are gathered to be slaughtered and eaten. Look what He says.

John 6:35,41,48,51 - Jesus says four times “I AM the bread from heaven.” It is He, Himself, the eternal bread from heaven.

John 6:27,31,49 - there is a parallel between the manna in the desert which was physically consumed, and this “new” bread which must be consumed.

John 6:51-58- then Jesus says that the bread He is referring to is His flesh. The Jews take Him literally and immediately question such a teaching. How can this man give us His flesh to eat? Jesus does not correct their literal interpretation. Instead, Jesus eliminates any metaphorical interpretations by swearing an oath and being even more literal about eating His flesh. In fact, Jesus says four times we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Catholics thus believe that Jesus makes present His body and blood in the sacrifice of the Mass. Protestants, if they are not going to become Catholic, can only argue that Jesus was somehow speaking symbolically.

John 6:23-53 - however, a symbolic interpretation is not plausible. Throughout these verses, the Greek text uses the word “phago” nine times. “Phago” literally means “to eat” or “physically consume.” Like the Protestants of our day, the disciples take issue with Jesus’ literal usage of “eat.” So Jesus does what?

John 6:54, 56, 57, 58 - He uses an even more literal verb, translated as “trogo,” which means to gnaw or chew or crunch. He increases the literalness and drives his message home. Jesus will literally give us His flesh and blood to eat. The word “trogo” is only used two other times in the New Testament (in Matt. 24:38 and John 13:18) and it always means to literally gnaw or chew meat. While “phago” might also have a spiritual application, “trogo” is never used metaphorically in Greek.

John 6:55 - to clarify further, Jesus says “For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed.” This phrase can only be understood as being responsive to those who do not believe that Jesus’ flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed. Further, Jesus uses the word which is translated as “sarx.” “Sarx” means flesh (not “soma” which means body). See, for example, John 1:13,14; 3:6; 8:15; 17:2; Matt. 16:17; 19:5; 24:22; 26:41; Mark 10:8; 13:20; 14:38; and Luke 3:6; 24:39 which provides other examples in Scripture where “sarx” means flesh. It is always literal.


#14

John 6:60 - as are many anti-Catholics today, Jesus’ disciples are scandalized by these words. They even ask, “Who can ‘listen’ to it (much less understand it)?” To the unillumined mind, it seems grotesque.

John 6:61-63 - Jesus acknowledges their disgust. Jesus’ use of the phrase “the spirit gives life” means the disciples need supernatural faith, not logic, to understand His words.
John 3:6 - Jesus often used the comparison of “spirit versus flesh” to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding. In Mark 14:38 Jesus also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. In 1 Cor. 2:14,3:3; Rom 8:5; and Gal. 5:17, Paul also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not receiving the gift of faith. They are still “in the flesh.”

John 6:63 - Protestants often argue that Jesus’ use of the phrase “the spirit gives life” shows that Jesus was only speaking symbolically. However, Protestants must explain why there is not one place in Scripture where “spirit” means “symbolic.” As we have seen, the use of “spirit” relates to supernatural faith. What words are spirit and life? The words that we must eat Jesus’ flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us.

Rom. 14:14-18; 1 Cor. 8:1-13; 1 Tim. 4:3 – Protestants often argue that drinking blood and eating certain sacrificed meats were prohibited in the New Testament, so Jesus would have never commanded us to consume His body and blood. But these verses prove them wrong, showing that Paul taught all foods, even meat offered to idols, strangled, or with blood, could be consumed by the Christian if it didn’t bother the brother’s conscience and were consumed with thanksgiving to God.

Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says we must become like children, or we will not enter the kingdom of God. We must believe Jesus’ words with child-like faith. Because Jesus says this bread is His flesh, we believe by faith, even though it surpasses our understanding.

Luke 1:37 - with God, nothing is impossible. If we can believe in the incredible reality of the Incarnation, we can certainly believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. God coming to us in elements He created is an extension of the awesome mystery of the Incarnation.


#15

Because he told us to.


#16

What about the second half of the question?


#17

I could go on but I’m taking up way to much room. Everythin I posted here and more can be found at www.scripturecatholic.com

Seriously, guys grow up. :mad:

You want to prove us Catholics wrong please prayfully read the passages I have posted and tell us where we have erred.

And if you really want to reach us. Show us from history (A Church Father, a pagan or christian historian who wrote about christians and the Eucharist, a Christian writing, anything that corollated with your symbolic view of the Eucharist.

You tell me that it is obvious that Christ is not present in the Eucharist. Then I’ll ask you to take out a quarter try to bend it. SOLID RIGHT. Now set it on a flat surface. Ain’t movin much RIGHT.

Well if you answered yes to both of the above then your wrong. The matter that makes up that quarter is mostly empty space ( 99.9999999999999% empty space to be exact) and the particles that make up that quarter are moving at speeds approaching the speed of light.

So with your five natural sences you were totally wrong on the nature of that physical quarter. How much so can you be wrong on something that pertains to the supernatural.


#18

Do this in rembrance of me


#19

Ah, but the Real Presence is possible in the Episcopal/Anglican Church. All of the last four Archbishops of Canterbury have valid apostolic succession. Therefore the ordinations they performed would be valid, but not licit.

John


#20

That didnt answer the question.:wink:


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