No Salvation Outside The Church?


#1

Hey everyone. I have always heard that the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. But what exactly does this mean? Would a baptized Non-Catholic person with advanced Parkinson’s Disease and Alzheimer’s Disease who doesn’t even know anyone anymore still be culpable for their sins? Would he go to Heaven?


#2

[quote="Holly3278, post:1, topic:207372"]
Hey everyone. I have always heard that the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. But what exactly does this mean? Would a baptized Non-Catholic person with advanced Parkinson's Disease and Alzheimer's Disease who doesn't even know anyone anymore still be culpable for their sins? Would he go to Heaven?

[/quote]

All who enter heaven enter through Jesus. The Church is the body of Christ, so all enter through the Church. Sometimes in mysterious ways when they are not formal members.

It is not our place to speculate on the eternal fate of another.


#3

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm#I


#4

[quote="Holly3278, post:1, topic:207372"]
Hey everyone. I have always heard that the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. But what exactly does this mean? Would a baptized Non-Catholic person with advanced Parkinson's Disease and Alzheimer's Disease who doesn't even know anyone anymore still be culpable for their sins? Would he go to Heaven?

[/quote]

No Salvation outside of the Church is wrong. See catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
The paragraph 819 in the Catechism says it pretty well. One thing to remember is that if there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church then that would mean no one that lived before the Church was instituted could go to Heaven.


#5

[quote="Holly3278, post:1, topic:207372"]
Hey everyone. I have always heard that the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church. But what exactly does this mean? Would a baptized Non-Catholic person with advanced Parkinson's Disease and Alzheimer's Disease who doesn't even know anyone anymore still be culpable for their sins? Would he go to Heaven?

[/quote]

It is true that there is no salvation outside the Church but that does not mean that you have to be in the Church to receive it. The Church is necessary for salvation for those in it and for those outside it. There is an ernormous amount of Graces that the Church has at her disposal and also the fact that these Graces are flowing out from the Eucharist. The Eucharistic Graces are overflowing so that those outside the Church may benefit from them. God supplies these Graces to whom it is necessary. The Church brings them in and God will dispose them to those who need it the most even those outside the Church. So the Church saves them even if they do not belong to her. Yet the person who receives these Graces must still acknowledge them. There is no guarentee that these people will be saved but they will have the Graces given to them so that they can decide still for God and Salvation. It is like this. When after the 5 loaves and 2 fishes were distrubeted to those in attendance the Lord asked to pick up the remaining left. 12 basketfuls were left. These represent Graces for the world. Even though God satified those in attendance He wishes those not in attendance also to be fed. These are represented in the 12 baskets at the end. So also when God feeds us in Holy Communion He always reserves an amount of Graces for those outside the Church and deposits this in their name. As long as there are people receiving Him so they permit God to put a reservoir of Graces available for those who did not come. No one is excluded! You are helping God to help those outside the Church when you come to receive Him. God Bless!


#6

There is salvation outside the Church, even if a Christian use to a member of the Catholic Church. So long as the Christian believes and obeys the Ten Commandments of God, and does so for God they saved.

Harry:)
Love and charity to all.


#7

I think your ‘assertion’ is limited, Pete.

There actually is No Salvation Outside The Catholic Church! The phrase in it’s simple statement is the problem for the illumination of it is almost ‘limitless.’

Briefly, The Catholic Church is the Mystical body of Christ. Therefore, She is, as He is; that is, from the beginning! He ‘saved’ all before His arrival with what He did when He got here. Then He manifested and instituted a physical presence in this temporal scope for all to see, The Catholic Church.

Therefore, at every time from beginning to His return, no one gets to Heaven outside His work.

The Church is universal in scope and origin.

:cool:


#8

Actually the bible teaches salvation is only found in the person of Jesus the Christ. Acts 4:10,12 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead... 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved."


#9

[quote="PeterMuz, post:4, topic:207372"]
No Salvation outside of the Church is wrong. See catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
The paragraph 819 in the Catechism says it pretty well. One thing to remember is that if there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church then that would mean no one that lived before the Church was instituted could go to Heaven.

[/quote]

Peter, you misunderstand the nature of the Church. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. Christ is eternal (always was, is, and always will be), therefore the Church is eternal (always was, is, and always will be). The Church's earthly ministry began about 2000 years ago, but it has always existed.

IF anyone gets to heaven, then they are members of this Church, and, therefore, Catholic. (Regardless of whether they were an explicit member of the Church during their lifetime or not.) They become part of the Church Triumphant (as opposed to the Church Suffering, i.e., those in Purgatory, and the Church Militant (us!)).

Sometimes we are so attentive to the "sensitivities" of others that we end up saying nothing and missing the entire point. I've seen this problem for many years now from most of the pulpits of the Masses I've attended in the U.S. Not all, but most. That's why we never hear anything about hell, artificial birth control and abortion being sinful, etc. "Father" doesn't want to "offend" anyone's "sensibilities." Therefore, we have about 75% of Catholics in America believing it's okay to miss Mass on Sunday, practice artificial birth control, support politicians who support "legalized" abortion, etc. It's a mess.


#10

[quote="jericho777, post:8, topic:207372"]
Actually the bible teaches salvation is only found in the person of Jesus the Christ. Acts 4:10,12 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead... 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved."

[/quote]

AND, the Bible says that Jesus saves THROUGH His Mystical Body, which is the Catholic Church. He established it for a reason. To ignore it or try to belittle it in some way is to ignore Him and belittle Him. When St. Paul was persecuting Christians, what did Jesus ask him? "Paul, why are you persecuting ME?" Notice He didn't ask Paul, "Why are you persecuting My Church?"

Do you believe ALL of the Bible? Just curious. :)


#11

[quote="Scoobyshme, post:10, topic:207372"]
AND, the Bible says that Jesus saves THROUGH His Mystical Body, which is the Catholic Church. He established it for a reason. To ignore it or try to belittle it in some way is to ignore Him and belittle Him. When St. Paul was persecuting Christians, what did Jesus ask him? "Paul, why are you persecuting ME?" Notice He didn't ask Paul, "Why are you persecuting My Church?"

Do you believe ALL of the Bible? Just curious. :)

[/quote]

Could you please give me the chapter and verse that says salvation is through His body the church? Believers make up the body, the church. The church organization dosen't make the body.


#12

[quote="Scoobyshme, post:10, topic:207372"]
AND, the Bible says that Jesus saves THROUGH His Mystical Body, which is the Catholic Church. He established it for a reason. To ignore it or try to belittle it in some way is to ignore Him and belittle Him. When St. Paul was persecuting Christians, what did Jesus ask him? "Paul, why are you persecuting ME?" Notice He didn't ask Paul, "Why are you persecuting My Church?"

Do you believe ALL of the Bible? Just curious. :)

[/quote]

PS also Paul was persecuting individual believers (men and women) which make up the body not an organization. Acts 9:1


#13

As far as I understand it, the only guaranteed way to salvation is through the Church.

But that isn't to say that salvation doesn't exist outside the Church, it's just that there is no guarantee that it does.

For non-Christians, there's what's called the 'baptism of desire' - that is to say the movement of the heart towards God even if the intellect doesn't recognise it as such. A person without belief may live a fine and upright life. Yes, they may commit what we would consider sins from time to time, but their knowledge isn't enough that they would recognise them as such, so their capacity to commit mortal sins is reduced to those that are self-evident or deducible by human reason alone (i.e. murder, etc). The judgement for their sins remains for God to determine at their death. Only God knows if there is any sorrow in their hearts for the things they've done wrong. Only God knows whether they were sufficiently culpable and in possession of enough knowledge about the outcome of their actions to make them responsible enough to answer for them. We can only hope that their consciences moved them to remorse for their wrong-doings and that the enormous mercy of God will be shown to them.

So we hold that the Church teaches enough for us to know what to do to attain eternal life and that we can rely on these teachings and trust that by following them we're doing enough. We can hope that others can also do enough and be forgiven enough too, but we can't know for sure.


#14

As soon as you can show me in the Bible, where the Bible says that everything Jesus did and taught is in the Bible. (See John 21:25 that disproves that.)

Yet, Jesus commanded His Apostles (and their successors, by extension) to go out and teach everything that He had taught them. (See Matt. 28:20).

So, where’s the difference? In Oral Tradition (teaching), a.k.a., Holy Tradition. That’s the oral teachings of Jesus that were taught from generation to generation in the Church that didn’t get written down.

Jesus never wrote a book. He established a Church. THIS Church, the Catholic Church, wrote some, but not all, of what Jesus taught, as a tool, not as a basis for a religion or another separate denomination.

This Bible, when properly used, has an authentic interpreter here on earth, and that’s the Church. See 1 Tim 3:15 that says the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth.” The ONLY Christian Church in existence for the first 1000 years after Jesus ascended to heaven was the Catholic Church. NO OTHER existed. Then, in 1054, the Orthodox split off. Only in 1517 did Protestantism begin, and since then has splintered into literally thousands of man-made, doctrinally disagreeing denominations (and counting).

So, rather than base your faith on your own personal interpretation of the Bible (see what Peter has to say about that in 2 Peter 1:20), you should base it on what the Church founded by Jesus has to say.


#15

[quote="jericho777, post:12, topic:207372"]
PS also Paul was persecuting individual believers (men and women) which make up the body not an organization. Acts 9:1

[/quote]

The Church is not a mere "organization." The Church is made up of the believers, some of whom have been called into the ministerial priesthood. The Church, unlike Protestantism, is not a man-made entity. It is a Divine entity, established on earth by Jesus Christ, Son of God. Not by mere men like Martin Luther (Lutherans), John Calvin (Calvinists), John Smythe (Baptists), John and Charles Wesley (Methodists), etc.


#16

Our Lord never preached that there would be no salvation outside His church

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.
6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering.”

7 Jesus said to him, “I will go and heal him.”

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, “I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

13Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! It will be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that very hour.

This means many outside the church will be accepted, because at that time it was the Jewish Church. After Our Lord rose from the dead, He commanded his disciples go and preach to all nation. Each nation had it own way of pleasing and glorifiying God. No matter what church a person belongs to, the Ten Commandment must be obeyed. It isn't what goes into the man that counts,but what comes out. Jesus preached that loving one another the heart of the law. Jesus Christ is the end of the law.

Harry:)
Love and charity to all.


#17

[quote="Harry1941, post:16, topic:207372"]
Our Lord never preached that there would be no salvation outside His church

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.
6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering.”

7 Jesus said to him, “I will go and heal him.”

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, “I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

13Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! It will be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that very hour.

This means many outside the church will be accepted, because at that time it was the Jewish Church. After Our Lord rose from the dead, He commanded his disciples go and preach to all nation. Each nation had it own way of pleasing and glorifiying God. No matter what church a person belongs to, the Ten Commandment must be obeyed. It isn't what goes into the man that counts,but what comes out. Jesus preached that loving one another the heart of the law. Jesus Christ is the end of the law.

Harry:)
Love and charity to all.

[/quote]

Harry,

St. Paul says the Church IS the Body of Christ. No one is saved apart from the Body of Christ. Anyone who is saved, i.e., reaches heaven, will be part of the Body of Christ, forever. They WILL be part of the Church. Therefore, no one will be saved outside of the Church. In other words, there are only members of the Body of Christ, the Church, in heaven. Even those who may not have been explicit members of it during their lifetimes, through no fault of their own.


#18

[quote="Scoobyshme, post:14, topic:207372"]
As soon as you can show me in the Bible, where the Bible says that everything Jesus did and taught is in the Bible. (See John 21:25 that disproves that.)

Yet, Jesus commanded His Apostles (and their successors, by extension) to go out and teach everything that He had taught them. (See Matt. 28:20).

So, where's the difference? In Oral Tradition (teaching), a.k.a., Holy Tradition. That's the oral teachings of Jesus that were taught from generation to generation in the Church that didn't get written down.

Jesus never wrote a book. He established a Church. THIS Church, the Catholic Church, wrote some, but not all, of what Jesus taught, as a tool, not as a basis for a religion or another separate denomination.

This Bible, when properly used, has an authentic interpreter here on earth, and that's the Church. See 1 Tim 3:15 that says the Church is the "pillar and foundation of truth." The ONLY Christian Church in existence for the first 1000 years after Jesus ascended to heaven was the Catholic Church. NO OTHER existed. Then, in 1054, the Orthodox split off. Only in 1517 did Protestantism begin, and since then has splintered into literally thousands of man-made, doctrinally disagreeing denominations (and counting).

So, rather than base your faith on your own personal interpretation of the Bible (see what Peter has to say about that in 2 Peter 1:20), you should base it on what the Church founded by Jesus has to say.

[/quote]

First there is no proof that" tradition" is really from God. It contradicts and changes the intent of the revealed word there by making another gospel. You blindly accept the word of men over the written word of God. That's dangerous.

Faith is based on the revealed word. Interpretation comes from what the bible teaches not mans will.


#19

[quote="Harry1941, post:6, topic:207372"]
There is salvation outside the Church, even if a Christian use to a member of the Catholic Church. So long as the Christian believes and obeys the Ten Commandments of God, and does so for God they saved.

Harry:)
Love and charity to all.

[/quote]

I don't want to go off topic (I hope a moderator will split this into a new thread if need be), but I've been asking myself the following for some time now. I was born and brought up Catholic, but within the past year have become "confused" after I became close friends with a Protestant who raised questions I haven't been able to satisfactorily answer. I don't consider myself Catholic at this point, but am still doing research into my questions because I want to make sure that if the Catholic Church is The Place to Be, I get back there yesterday. If for some reason I die before the Holy Spirit helps me "figure things out"... will I go to hell... because I once was but no longer am a member of the Catholic Church? :( All of this has been causing me a lot of anguish the past several months... I want to know the truth and be where God wants me to be--and none of the other denominations, except for Lutheranism perhaps (some parts of Anglicanism are too liberal for me), would be a good fit. But if out of my own myopia, pride, ignorance, or folly, I don't "jump back in" before I die--let's say in a car accident--what's going to happen?


#20

Do you have any proof of this charge?

Faith is based on the revealed word. Interpretation comes from what the bible teaches not mans will.

The Bible is a sacred book, but it cannot teach.


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