No sin in heaven or the new heaven or earth?


#1

Can someone explain; if there is No sin in heaven or the new heaven and earth after the last judgment, why couldn’t have God just created the original earth without sin and spared pain and death upon untold numbers of living organisms over the last five billion years?

Thanks


#2

He did create everything without sin. It was Adam and Eve, through their freewill, who chose to sin. They disobeyed God.


#3

I’m sorry I should have been more specific. What I meant to say was, since there is no possibility of sin in the current heaven, and presumably no possibility of sin in the future new heaven and earth; why could God not have done this in the first place?

i.e. created the first earth with man, with no possibility of sin yet with a free will, like in the above examples.

This is a real showstopper for me.

Thanks again


#4

Not everybody is going to be in heaven!

God is Love, and He created us to love. There is no such thing as love without choice – without the person having the freedom to choose to love. This of course means that the possibility to choose not to love (possibility of sin) must also exist – otherwise “choice” would not exist.

Regarding those in heaven (chose to love properly): we start making the choices here on earth. You might think of it as tho, by the time we enter heaven, our choice is so firmly entrenched that we wouldn’t even consider making an evil choice – it would be totally repulsive.

Experience here on earth shows us that with conversion and the desire to love Our Lord, we start to combat the sin in our life. The more we turn to Our Lord, the more grace we receive. And, assuming we cooperate with that grace, we begin to overcome sin. Eventually sins that we may once have found pleasurable, become abhorrent to us.

When we come into the full presence of God in heaven (after death & probably Purgatory), we will be so filled with the life of His grace and love for Him that we will freely choose only that throughout eternity. We will still “love” in heaven, we will not become programmed robots. You might say, we will have become enough like God to love like Him – but only because we freely chose it, not because He forced us into it by making it the only possibility.

Nita


#5

So you are saying that it **is **possible for mankind to have free will and never sin, albeit in the present heaven or in the future earth.

That doesn’t answer my question though. If what you say is correct, then why wouldn’t have God created this environment in the first place?


#6

It would have required that man and angels be admitted to the beatific vision from the beginning. God did not choose to do that.

We do not know why. Remember, we are not God and we do not think like an infinite, eternal being. So, what does not make sense to us does to Him.


#7

Am I the only one who sees a moral problem with this?

The whole argument for the necessity of animal sacrifice and Christ’s sacrifice was to atone for sin, which brought pain and death into the world.

Sin was the result of free will.

Yet this was all avoidable as you all agree with the examples of heaven and the new earth.

If an omnibenevolent being wanted creatures who would know and love him (which was the whole point of creation), and if it is possible to create this environment so that these creatures have free will and yet do not sin, then why create **needless **pain, suffering and death to untold beings?

I really don’t get it.


#8

I can only speak for myself. I do not see a moral problem with this at all.

No, you have it wrong. Sin must be atoned for because it offends God, not because of pain and suffering.

Yes.

No, I don’t agree with this premise.

The reason there is no sin in the new heaven and new earth is because those who inhabit the new heaven and new earth have **already **made the irrevocable choice for God. The operative word being choice.

If God had created us immediately in the Beatific Vision, this would have altered free will.

Pain and suffering isn’t necessarily “needless”. That is your opinion. Pain and suffering can be redemptive.


#9

I am confused by the term new earth. After judgement day won’t the earth be no more? People will either be in heaven or hell. I didn’t think earth will even exist after that point. Clarify me on this if I am wrong. Thanks


#10

Adam and Eve chose to separate themselves from God when they disobeyed Him. To disobey God is to reject His rightful authority and therefore His “godhood”. What we are to come to learn here in this world of pain and suffering is that separation from God is pain and suffering-that we can’t truly live -we can’t have a life worth living-without Him. With this we gain the opportunity to regain what Adam & Eve lost, making the right choice for ourselves this time.


#11

Yes. (I’m not sure what you mean by “future earth”. All my responses are in reference to heaven.) Jesus and Mary, of course, chose not to sin even while here on earth.

That doesn’t answer my question though. If what you say is correct, then why wouldn’t have God created this environment in the first place?

This heavenly “environment” (where we choose never to sin) is **the state of **full **union **with God **in love **- a reciprocal, two-way flow of love between the God and us. As you can see, that environment exists only when we love God - which, by definition, means we choose God. Inherent in the meaning of “choosing” is the concept of freedom; the freedom to accept or reject whatever is being offered or proposed. Thus, if we are to truly make a free choice for God, we must be subjected to situations where it is possible to accept or reject Him.
That is why Adam and Eve were given a choice. Also, why the angels were given a choice.
Take away choice, and it’s no longer “love”.

Had God chosen to place us in a full union with Him to begin with - a union where He freely loves us but we could only respond “unfreely” (that is, in automatic obedience to His will because He made no other option/s possible) - then we would no longer be the same creation. We would no longer have free will and thus would be incapable of loving. Free will is the human power given to us by God that most makes us in His image and likeness.

Also, heaven itself would be different. It would no longer be a reciprocal union of love with God. He would still be loving us (but not as His creation gifted with free will), but we would not be “loving” Him.

I think you will find it helpful to ponder, and read about, the meaning of love (what it is, it’s importance and goodness, etc.) and, also on the gift of free will. Ponder the necessary connection between the two.

God bless you,
Nita


#12

Because God is able to create much good out of evil-this is a mystery-Jesus lowered Himself to become human so that He could bring us witness that yes, God does exist. He then taught us what we needed to know to become united to God:

Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.
Love your neighbor as yourself
LIVE the beatitudes

Repent of your sins, be baptized, believe in the Gospel of Jesus

Making the stations of the Cross, accompanied by our Mother, ASK the Holy Spirit for understanding and guidance.

PRACTICE virtue-it will lead you to charity and hope.

Religion is a way of life, not just an intellectual exercise
Jesus chooses the most unlikely, the unworthy and the least of all and empowers us with His Grace to follow Him.

If one chooses to be as much like Jesus as possible, then one must take up one’s cross and follow in His footsteps.

Try to live in each moment-and respond to others and act, not react, as Jesus would-if one finds this difficult then look at others and see them as Jesus .

IOW the answer to your question is that through sin and death, the world was able to experience much more grace because Jesus came and died-it is in His suffering and death that the merits He earned became available to save us all-past, present and future.

Jesus asks and invites us all to help bring all of us into His Kingdom.


#13

You are asking finite mortal minds to understand God’s mind - that is impossible.

But let me convey some personal insight that might get you started on a path to greater revelation.

Turn this question around and ask “Why did God lower himself to the stature of humanity and permit evil men to put Him on the cross to be cruelly tortured, abused and killed?” Clearly, God could have just appeared on earth and said “enough - I ban all sin and evil”. But no, He did not do that. He, for reasons not fully understood to us elected to identify with us and share in our suffering human condition. He set an example. He essentially said “see, I take on the same hardships and suffering that you have and take your penalty onto myself as an act of love”.

God did not grant Himself an exemption to our human condition or suffering that humanity “deserved” as a result of its original disobedience. Jesus did what all true leaders do by empathizing with His people. He asked for no more of others than He Himself was willing to do in our stead. Further - Jesus took on one of the worst forms of torture and death imaginable - the Romans were experts in administering pain and agony to teach lessons to those who would be so bold to disobey their rule. But God also put His son Jesus through a deeper passion of spiritual agony that we will never fully know by imparting the penalty of all of humanity’s sin on His beloved Son. So in addition to terrible physical suffering (that the others crucified with him suffered in similar form) Jesus also suffered infinitely more than any human can imagine or ever know by suffered both severe physical and spiritual pain at an unimaginable level that only the Divine can suffer through the human soul of Jesus.

Can you imagine the spiritual agony the Divine Jesus suffered, as the incarnate 2nd person of God who is hypo-statically united through Jesus was mysteriously abandoned (veiled) by God the Father momentarily on the cross when Jesus cried out “My God My God why have You abandoned me”? How Jesus could not despair in that moment and still have perfect faith to even call on God is beyond comprehension. We humans just can’t possibly fathom that level of spiritual pain for Jesus as Son nor God the Father in permitting it happen for love of humanity. On the cross, God put 100% of His Love on the line for Humanity and made us equal to Jesus’ humanity. That is profound love and empathy.

My own conjecture is that God elected to use the pain and suffering of the crucifixation since it released the highest and best grace for all of Creation. There is something spiritually necessary that we can’t quite fathom that probably relates to God’s Justice (with real eternal rewards or penalties and consequences) as well as for settling spiritual Divine debts (with Satan). After-all - God could just annihilate Satan and instantly preserve us all from original sin if He chose too - but He does not. That would not be consistent with His Justice.

Note too that the selfless act on the cross makes it possible for humans to RELATE to God’s love through empathy with things we can understand (pain, selfless sacrifice for others, the Father’s loss of His only son, injustice is making an innocent person pay for somone else’s faults etc.). We are sensual as well as spiritual beings - we can see God suffering through Jesus on the cross and love and have sorrow for that act. We could not love God as much if He just popped down and said “here is a free pass to heaven”. He wants us to cooperate with Him as a partner so that we can share in His Glory. This is what is profound - God wants us to not just be saved but to participate with Him and share in the love, glory and satisfaction of that salvation by suffering right along with Him.

This act on the cross becomes a mechanism for opening up humanity’s heart to LOVE. We see an innocent man dieing for us and because of us. How can we not love such an act? Yes some won’t still…

Jesus had NOTHING to gain for himself personally (on earth) in dieing on that cross other than His being unconditionally obedient to God’s will. Jesus gave us all the model for expressing perfect selfless love - sacrificing one’s own comforts and laying down one’s life for our fellows.

Now consider that there is perhaps some supernatural and divine mystery associated with suffering and passion that we can not fully understand at this time. Consider the nature of suffering. I am sure you can recall unpleasant times in your life - perhaps you were hurt, injured, insulted, harmed or even just cold from being exposed to the elements. Flash forward to a better time when you were past it or overcame it. You might be able to recollect a general accounting of the suffering but unless you are still suffering that pain - its gone and is just a memory. We likely do not dwell on it - its often forgotten and in its place we are shaped by that experience and stronger of character for having endured it and beaten it. There is even a strange sense of accomplishment and overcoming that prior pain and suffering.

So, no doubt there are many dimensions, too many to comprehend as to “why” God opted to use “suffering” as consequence for disobedience. But the thing this is most profound here is that by humanity disobeying, God still had a plan to rescue us from our poor choices. God can’t fail. The ironic thing is that by humanity’s disobeying a GREATER GOOD that had we not sinned comes out in the end for those who choose to trust God the 2nd time around (the first was Adam and Eve’s choice). The difference from the original estate if obedience is that the greater good requires that we humans suffer as a result of God’s Justice.

I’d say only a fool would not trust God this 2nd after seeing that He lowered Himself to human estate to show us the way back to Himself and how to love Him in the way that pleases Him.

Hope this helps some,
James


#14

Thanks for the replies. I must admit some of my questions are from threads I’ve read on atheist forums, for which I could find find no logical answer.

I’m not going to follow up on those threads, it’s sufficient that I myself have found the answers. Thanks again.


#15

IMO it has become pretty clear recently.

God is love. True Love (God) is totally unselfish, totally ‘‘other conscious’’.

Love is the exact opposite — the antithesis — of self-consideration.

Caring for one’s own well-being above that of any other is not perfect love.

Love has to be for non-selfish reasons.

Love has to be for OTHERS.

But Love has to be a CHOICE — a choice AGAINST selfishness.

God IS Love!!!

Love IS God!!!

Love IS Heaven!!!

Heaven IS Love!!!

If we would be ‘‘perfect’’ we must be totally unselfish.

To be totally unselfish is to ALWAYS put others’ good above one’s own!

As Jesus did…

Now if there were to be NO sin, then there MUST be no SELFISHNESS.

If there were no selfish drive in people, then there could be no choice.

If there is no choice then there CAN be NO love.

If there is no love, then there is no God.

Heaven IS Love!!

If all on earth love every other on earth as the best mother loves her children, then we would have heaven on earth.

Heaven is NOT pleasure, it is love.

Heaven is not joy, it is love.

Heaven is not fun, it is love.

Heaven is when we all foresake our own well being to advance that of others.

Make sense??


#16

Others have stated it perfectly… and I concur. The entire answer to everything, is love. Love is where we find our happiness. Love is where we find our worth. Love is a Person. GOD IS LOVE. To be given the privilege of choosing God is a better scenario than the one you created.

Free will is the greatest gift and expression of God’s love for us, even if there are tragic consequences. One need only look to the crucifixion and death of Christ to know there are tragic consequences of free will… but there is also the Love that conquers all.

Even the angels were given a free choice. Once they made their choice it was set. So, too, at the moment of our death, our choice will be set. Would we, at that critical moment, wish that God had never created us with the freedom to choose, out of pure love, the One who loved us first? Perish the thought! Choosing God is our absolute and ultimate joy, just as not choosing God is for others their absolute sorrow.

  • Westy

#17

And in order to choose God then, one must choose to love one another — even the least of these ---- NOW.


#18

This is the ironic and inseparable Charity (BOTH love of God AND love of neighbor) that a lot of pretend Christians never get. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO LOVE GOD WHILE NOT LOVING ONE’s NEIGHBOR. Love of neighbor is the strongest signal of assurances of salvation. Anyone who professes to love God but scorns their enemies or are indifferent to their neighbors is not a true Christian and is at high risk of not being saved.

James


#19

If I might suggest two modifications of this:…

…love of neighbor might not be considered a ‘‘signal’’ of salvation …

…and ‘‘assurances’’ might not even be a worthy target for us.

Perhaps, using a sports analogy, love of neighbor might be the ‘‘practice field’’ for the ‘‘game’’ of salvation. As one ‘‘practices’’ (conditions his/her muscles or disciplines his/her willpower) so one will ‘‘perform’’ when tested, and…

…seeking ‘‘assurances’’ of one’s own salvation might actually be counter productive: seeking assurances of the ‘‘salvation’’ of the others whom one encounters might be the only fulfilling modus operendi. IMO Pascal’s wager is intrinsically inverted. LOL!


#20

I really firmly believe that God reveals and tests himself through our relationships with others. God is in a perpetual courtship with us and gives us real body language through those we interact with to tell us things about our relationship with Him. God really has bound Himself inseparable with humanity in permitting Himself to suffer on the cross. This is why the two great commandments to 1) Love God with all your heart mind and soul and 2) Love your neighbor as yourself are always taken together and define “Charity” and are inseparable. One can not love God to the exclusion of loving one’s neighbor since God takes residence in each of us who conform to Him. Nor can anyone love all the wacky and imperfect people (our neighbor) we come into contact with without loving God since it takes real grace to love our imperfect fellow man (as well as ourselves when fail) . We are afterall human and sensual beings and God can relate to us through our fellows - certainly when we are not yet mature and at the more lofty levels of spiritual maturity.

So of course the principal focus is on Charity. We don’t go to seek direct signals of salvation. But while looking charity in the eye and it happens to twinkle back and smile then we can take that as a pretty good signal that “things are right” and that we are living according to God’s plan for our personal salvation.

This is a lot like dating a potential mate. The focus is on finding a compatible person to love who will return that love rather than thinking about personal rewards and life style etc. After a dating introduction if the person smiles and gives proactive body language then we take that as a undeniable signal of interest and probable success that just encourages us even more to enter into a deeper love.

The same principal exists with respect to affirming our relationship with God and knowing through positive feedback (body language so to speak) that we are on the right path. This of course does not always account for those super high levels of spiritual achievement where God veils himself to certain individuals during “the dark night of the soul” and only reveals himself through the lowest levels of human sufferings in our fellow man (ref. Mother Theresa and St. John of the Cross).

James


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