No speaking tongues, no Holy Spirit?


#1

I have a Pentecostal friend at work that insists that because I have never spoken in Tongues, received the gifts, I have never received the Holy Spirit. I know better starting with Baptism, but can you suggest an effective, charitable way to respond to her? God Bless.


#2

[quote=Michael Bitler]I have a Pentecostal friend at work that insists that because I have never spoken in Tongues, received the gifts, I have never received the Holy Spirit. I know better starting with Baptism, but can you suggest an effective, charitable way to respond to her? God Bless.
[/quote]

well, i’ve never really understood that aspect of belief either…

in the bible, when the Holy Spirit decended and gave the Apostles
the gift of tongues, they spoke languages some of the other
people around them understood…

it was the Holy Spirit enabling the Apostles to spread the
word to more people… each heard the gospel in their own
language…

plus there were other gifts besides the gift of tongues… not
all received the same gifts…

:slight_smile:


#3

[quote=Michael Bitler]I have a Pentecostal friend at work that insists that because I have never spoken in Tongues, received the gifts, I have never received the Holy Spirit. I know better starting with Baptism, but can you suggest an effective, charitable way to respond to her? God Bless.
[/quote]

I went to a Charismatic meeting once but was put off by the attitude of the some of the group, in particular the ones leading it. They told me that the ONLY way to communicate with the Holy Spirit was in tongues, and also that exorcisms could be done ONLY in tongues. I later talked to my local priest who said both of these things were nonsense.


#4

That is what most pentecostals will say. If you don’t speak in tongues, you don’t have the Holy Spirit and thus don’t have salvation.

Last time I checked, scripture tells us “you shall know them by their fruits”, not “you shall know them by their speaking in tongues”.

This is why I love our own Charismatic Catholics, because we aren’t going to get that kind of nonsense from them.


#5

[quote=jesusluv]That is what most pentecostals will say. If you don’t speak in tongues, you don’t have the Holy Spirit and thus don’t have salvation.

Last time I checked, scripture tells us “you shall know them by their fruits”, not “you shall know them by their speaking in tongues”.

This is why I love our own Charismatic Catholics, because we aren’t going to get that kind of nonsense from them.
[/quote]

I’m Catholic and it was a Catholic Charismatic group that told me that nonsense!


#6

Paul is pretty clear on the subject;

1Cor 12…
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

The whole chapter revolves around diversity within the body of Christ. If everyone spoke in tongues there would be gapping holes in the body. I wouldn’t put too much stock in what they have to say regarding this. Also, I’ve never heard anyone speak in tongues legitimately. It’s usually some form of babbling and incoherant noises. True tongues are a language that you don’t know for the edification of someone else…hence the interpretation of the tongues…Paul says that if there is no interpreter then the person should stay quiet…just my 2 cents…


#7

The idea that tongues is necessary for being in the Spirit is not authentic Pentecostal teaching. I knew of a pastor who did not speak in tongues for 22 years,and suffered greatly at the hands of a faction of his own community. Saint Paul speaks of tongues as being the least of the Gifts of the Spirit.
I once attended a meeting where a simple uneducated woman gave a prophecy in tongues. There was a priest present who had just returned from studying in Jerusalem. He not only stated that the language used by the woman was Hebrw, but translated the prophecy.


#8

[quote=maklavan]The idea that tongues is necessary for being in the Spirit is not authentic Pentecostal teaching. I knew of a pastor who did not speak in tongues for 22 years,and suffered greatly at the hands of a faction of his own community. Saint Paul speaks of tongues as being the least of the Gifts of the Spirit.
[/quote]

Actually, in many Pentecostal bodies, this IS their teaching. Speaking in tongues is considered the “Initial Evidence” for salvation.

There is an outstanding organization of scholars, to which I belong, consisting primarily of Catholic and Pentecostal theologians, trying to bridge differences and understand similarities. Their site is here:

sps-usa.org/


#9

[quote=Northwind]Paul is pretty clear on the subject;

1Cor 12…
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

The whole chapter revolves around diversity within the body of Christ. If everyone spoke in tongues there would be gapping holes in the body. I wouldn’t put too much stock in what they have to say regarding this. Also, I’ve never heard anyone speak in tongues legitimately. It’s usually some form of babbling and incoherant noises. True tongues are a language that you don’t know for the edification of someone else…hence the interpretation of the tongues…Paul says that if there is no interpreter then the person should stay quiet…just my 2 cents…
[/quote]

Thanks for not quoting without this last sentence. A more excellant way for which Paul was willing to die for.


#10

[quote=David Zampino]Actually, in many Pentecostal bodies, this IS their teaching. Speaking in tongues is considered the “Initial Evidence” for salvation.

There is an outstanding organization of scholars, to which I belong, consisting primarily of Catholic and Pentecostal theologians, trying to bridge differences and understand similarities. Their site is here:

sps-usa.org/
[/quote]

As someone who spent 20 years in a Pentecostal Church and having become intimately familiar with a number of various charismatic and Pentecostal denominations, I can say with absolute certainly that you are incorrect in this assessment.

There are a number of Pentecostals that believe that speaking in tongues is evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but that is very different than salvation or even receiving the Spirit.

Most Pentecostals believe one can be saved and even receive the Spirit without speaking in tongues. I’ve only encountered a few minor sects that believe tongues are a sign of salvation - very few in number and small in influence. The belief that tongues are required for evidence of receiving the Spirit, which is what this thread is about, are somewhat larger, but still very much a minority. The only problem is, those who hold to these beliefs are very rigid in doing so. It’s hard to convince them of anything different. They will continually bring up the scripture in which Peter lays hands on the believers because they previously had believed in Jesus and received John’s baptism, but had not yet received the Spirit, so the apostles laid hands on them and they spoke in tongues.

David


#11

[quote=Michael Bitler]I have a Pentecostal friend at work that insists that because I have never spoken in Tongues, received the gifts, I have never received the Holy Spirit. I know better starting with Baptism, but can you suggest an effective, charitable way to respond to her? God Bless.
[/quote]

1 Cor 12:30 (NASB) All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

If St. Paul says not everyone in the body speaks in tongues, who am I to argue with him?


#12

[quote=thistle]I’m Catholic and it was a Catholic Charismatic group that told me that nonsense!
[/quote]

What they told you was misguided nonsense.:frowning:

I have been involved with the Catholic Charismatic renewal, I have only heard this on occasion.

Most Catholic Charismatics I know would not say that, most are very orthodox in their belief.:slight_smile:

Trick


#13

[quote=b_justb]1 Cor 12:30 (NASB) All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

If St. Paul says not everyone in the body speaks in tongues, who am I to argue with him?
[/quote]

That’s about as solid as scriptural evidence gets to demonstrate that tongues are not required to prove the Spirit is within. Of course, they might follow-up by saying they would accept prophecy or miracles or healings as proof as well :), it just has to be one of the gifts.

Reminds me of a funny true story. I was running a life in the Spirit class, and we had one woman who was frustrated because she had not spoken in tongues. We were in the middle of trying to alleviate her fears and let her know that she had indeed received the Spirit and to relax about tongues, when she told us that she did have an interesting experience the night before when she was waitressing at work, a customer came in covered with bandages having recently been released from the hospital with 3rd degree burns. She felt such pity for him and asked if she could pray for him. He said ‘yes’ so she laid her hand gently on his arm and prayed - he was instantly healed!! He started unwrapping the bandages as fast as he could to show that new skin had grown over and healed his burns. The whole restaurant was amazed . . . and my mouth is on the ground thinking she’s worried about not receiving tongues when she’s received a far greater gift of healing!!

David


#14

[quote=DavidB]They will continually bring up the scripture in which Peter lays hands on the believers because they previously had believed in Jesus and received John’s baptism, but had not yet received the Spirit, so the apostles laid hands on them and they spoke in tongues.

David
[/quote]

This scripture has always puzzled me because it seems to contradict Catholic teaching, although I know that can’t be the case…how does the Church interpret this since it does seem to say they did not receive the Holy Spirit until they spoke in tonuges?


#15

1 Corinthians 13:8

8 4 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.

The dependence on tongues is a false dependence. Tongues will cease. Only love is endless. Furthermore, it is wrong to speak tongues if people cannot interpret them.1 Corinthians 14: 27-28

27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.

How many people can understand this babbling? Do people strictly adhere to only letting people speak tongues if there are also interpreters present?Furthermore, Scripture indicates that “speaking in tongues” isn’t necessarily just some Spirit-inspired babble, but actual foreign languages.

6 At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 They were astounded, and in amazement they asked, “Are not all these people who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how does each of us hear them in his own native language? 9We are Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya near Cyrene, as well as travelers from Rome, 11both Jews and converts to Judaism, Cretans and Arabs, yet we hear them speaking in our own tongues of the mighty acts of God.”

1 Corinthians 14:9-11

9 Similarly, if you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air. 10It happens that there are many different languages in the world, and none is meaningless; 11but if I do not know the meaning of a language, I shall be a foreigner to one who speaks it, and one who speaks it a foreigner to me.

Paul also says in verse 18

18 I give thanks to God that I speak in tongues more than any of you,

He used tongues that could communicate with other people. Tongues were part of “building up” the Church, see verse 12

…seek to have an abundance of them for building up the church.

Thus, verse 22:

22 Thus, tongues are a sign not for those who believe but for unbelievers, whereas prophecy is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

On the other hand, how do we receive the Holy Spirit?
Acts 8:17

17 Then they laid hands on them and they received the holy Spirit.


#16

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