Non Catholics getting into heaven

Is there any judgment of the Church you can provide (maybe I missed it) that innocent error or ignorance is incompatible with faith?

I would agree that a culpable choice to say, be Protestant, would be incompatible with faith even if the person were not knowledgeable of all the heresies of Protestantism (that’s where implicit heresy would come in). But I think what I provided above says that where error is innocent, it is not incompatible with faith and the person is not guilty of heresy (which is why we call it “good faith).”

Yes, I read the thread. No, I just claim to have read the Catechism.

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Certainly effort counts in Judaism, but I don’t know whether it does in Christianity or, in particular, Catholicism. That is, effort in the sense of becoming more of a moral person in one’s behavior, not in converting to Judaism. If one is Jewish, then the effort might be toward incorporating more teachings of the Law in one’s behavior. But perfection, or even striving toward perfection, is not necessary, nor is it possible, given our human nature.

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Wow that reflects my thoughts exactly. Maybe I am a little bit Jewish???

Thanks for articulating that so well. :slight_smile:

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This is untrue. If the intent was to do what Christ commanded and the formula is correct the baptism is valid. I’m Catholic. I was baptized in a Protestant church. My baptism was considered valid at my confirmation.

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Jesus is THE judge.

He decides.

But be nice to His Mother; He does what she asks.

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You have absolutely zero reason to yell at anyone here.

People are reading the thread, for the record. As evidenced by their responses.

And his was correct in response to the earlier post.

I am a convert and was not rebaptized to enter the Catholic Church. If you think the Catholic Church considers my baptism any different, you’re mistaken.

Did you not renew your baptismal promises at your Confirmation? I did. And it’s the belief of the Catholic Church that my baptism had the same effect on me that my Catholic father’s had on him.

What you’re doing is professing - or attempting to profess - that we are lesser Catholics because we were baptized outside the faith. The Church disagrees, and accepted us.

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Says who? Because the Church does not.

As I asked, at your Confirmation, did you not renew your promises? :wink: We did.

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Again I ask…did you?

I feel fairly certain you understand why I’m asking.

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Bingo. Not a dead horse. Not missing the point.

Please stop the attempts at persecuting others until you’ve renewed your own promises and been accepted completely into the Catholic faith. That’s unfair and unChristian in my book. While I realize you’ve been at this longer than I have, you yourself have the capability of educating us over alienating us - we are new to this, even though we’re confirmed. Welcome us, don’t cause us to turn away.

I may be confirmed, but I am only just now being able to call myself Catholic. What a thrill it was when I filled out paperwork for an upcoming medical procedure yesterday and for the first time I proclaimed my religious preference as “Roman Catholic”. This is a big deal to me and to all the converts, I’d guess.

The CCC says “the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace”. That is true. So we all must remember our place in the scheme of things.

None of us are any better than anyone else here. Most of us are likely older than you are. (I’m making an assumption - feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.) So yelling won’t garner you respect. You are more than entitled to your views, but there’s no need for rudeness and calling people out.

I’m actually very interested in your more Traditional views. But it’s hard to learn from you when you’re blasting people in a forum.

You have a lot to share. You know a lot more than A LOT of us.

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That wasn’t a diversion. That was truth.

I don’t find the Church’s teachings intolerant or unChristian. The attitude from you, though, comes across as both, and that’s what I addressed.

I’ve done and continue to do my research, as evidenced by my quoting of the CCC multiple times and the fact that I’m now a Catholic.

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Yelling isn’t necessary. Just trying to tell you that you catch more flies with honey than with vitriol.

People join threads at various times and have every right to put in their two cents.

Our baptisms are valid. Clearly according to the CCC, a Catholic baptism’s grace also isn’t completed until Confirmation in the Church is accomplished. As that is in the CCC, it would appear that that statement puts all baptized (all validly baptized, of course) on a level playing field at some point.

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I never said you did, did I? Read the thread, I suppose. As I have stated, the CCC - and hence the Catholic Church - says baptism isn’t complete until confirmation.

Also - Thomisitic theology, while helpful, is NOT dogmatic.

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No, I actually haven’t implied that once. You’re inferring the implication, but I have never once implied that you said that. What you continued to insist was that they are fundamentally different.

Not really. Otherwise confirmation wouldn’t be the culmination for both of us. Mine would differ.

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Because while you state it, you seem to find ways to attempt to circumvent it.

If both culminate in confirmation regardless of the faith one is initially baptized in, they must be equal. All baptisms according to the CCC are culminated at confirmation with the completion of baptismal grace.

Exactly. And since you and I do the same things - for the most part - to be received at Confirmation, how do we start out unequal?

Absolutely nowhere in the CCC is there a distinction between your baptism or that of my father in the Catholic Church, and mine in the Methodist Church.

Were I LDS, we’d have a different ball game, as that baptism is not in any way equal to either Protestantism or the Church.

I was even signified in RCIA as different from the non baptized. I was a Candidate, not a Catechumenate, as the latter is reserved for those not yet Christian by baptism. I was recognized as an equal Christian, just not a Catholic one.

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Thank you for speaking up for us converts and hopeful converts! If I thought I’d be any less Catholic than the Cradle Catholics it would be a barrier to conversion for me. THANKFULLY the CCC is clear that we are all in the same state of grace until confirmed!

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We are universal, we are catholic, we are Catholic, united in one holy apostolic faith.

That is what is important.

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Pope Leo XIII said in 1896:

“The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse) what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. [Apostolicae Curae 33; emphasis added]”

"Some folks think that Catholic acceptance of any Protestant Baptism at all is a Vatican II novelty. This is not the case. Here is what the Catechism of the Council of Trent says:

Those who may administer Baptism in case of necessity, but without its solemn ceremonies, hold the last place; and in this class are included all, even the laity, men and women, to whatever sect they may belong. This office extends in case of necessity, even to Jews, infidels and heretics, provided, however, they intend to do what the Catholic Church does in that act of her ministry. These things were established by many decrees of the ancient Fathers and Councils; and the holy Council of Trent denounces anathema against those who dare to say, that Baptism, even when administered by heretics, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, with the intention of doing what the Church does, is not true Baptism. [source; emphasis added]"

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How do you contend this these sections from the CCC:

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"68 member of Christ and coheir with him,69 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.70

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

  • enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
  • giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
  • allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
    Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

And this:

1285 Baptism, the Eucharist, and the sacrament of Confirmation together constitute the “sacraments of Christian initiation,” whose unity must be safeguarded. It must be explained to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace.88 For "by the sacrament of Confirmation, [the baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed."89

Valid Protestant Baptisms are such because they are trinitarian! According to the CCC, we do receive the graces that leave an indelible mark. This is why we are not baptized again. It is confirmation that completes this grace. That is as true for the convert as it is for the cradle Catholic.

Why is it so important to you that we be set apart and somehow marked as “other”?

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No, I maintain you are incorrect. Otherwise we wouldn’t be granted equal footing - because confirmation completes the rites of initiation for both of us, without ANYTHING extra done by me.

Nowhere is it stated in any doctrine - doctrine, I say - that the baptism of a convert is “less” than a Catholic one (if valid).

I “get it”.

We are equalized through confirmation, but not for reasons you assert.

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