Please tell us how you arrived at such a outlandish accusation from the words i wrote?
Girl in RCIA. Gotta say that the most annoying thing I’ve come across are sedevacantists youtube trolls, though I’m not sure that they can be classed as true catholics.
Not everything I said here is based on everything you have said. But Mary (for you) was born a sinless person who resurrected and sits that the right hand of Jesus interceding for the Church. This idea is found nowhere in scripture but to the contrary.
I grew up in south Texas where Catholicism was very strong and influential. The Shrines offered to Mary in people’s front yards and Church yards, are quite impressive along with the worship of her image on a wall or as a reflection from a chrome bumper. And then there are the apparitions and visions of Mary by some who fuel the flame to her status as the Queen of heaven.
My goodness… my statement about it running close to idolatry was generous.
Idolatry is the worship of something or someone who is not God. No good and informed Catholic in good standing with the Church would ever worship Mary. The problem you seem to have is that Catholics emphasize Mary too much in your opinion. But whether that is true or not, we don’t worship her. That would be weird.
Hyperdulia, not latria.
Alright. Since you replied to me and no other quoted material it seemed as if your post was a direct answer to mine. again you are incorrect Mary was not resurrected. She was assumed into heaven. She was taken not of her own but of God’s doing.
No , you are right. I can’t. But I can appeal to the highest church fathers available, those who were actually there and serve as witnesses to the truth: The NT writers and framers of Christianity. It is their testimony that contradicts the rest.
Why is it only possible to be “full of grace” if she was conceived without sin?
Which set of homilies is this quote taken from? I want to read the quote in context, but I can’t find this homily. From what I have read by Origen, he had an unusual understanding of some type of inherited sin.
I found a similar quote in a fragment from Hippolytus that was quoted a few centuries later:
On Psalm 22 or 23
"From the Commentary by the Holy Bishop and Martyr Hippolytus, on The Lord is My Shepherd.
And, moreover, the ark made of imperishable wood was the Saviour Himself. For by this was signified the imperishable and incorruptible tabernacle of (the Lord) Himself, which gendered no corruption of sin. For the sinner, indeed, makes this confession: My wounds stank, and were corrupt, because of my foolishness. But the Lord was without sin, made of imperishable wood, as regards His humanity; that is, of the virgin and the Holy Ghost inwardly, and outwardly of the word of God, like an ark overlaid with purest gold."
Is this where your quote was taken from? (I don’t understand what the Latin abbreviations mean.) How do we know that his reference to the tabernacle meant Mary? There are many analogies that can be made.
Augustine was hesitant to say that Mary committed actual sin. That is what this quote is stating. Pelagius stated that many people had lived their lives free of sin, and Augustine argued against Pelagius on this ( Chapter 42 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1503.htm ). Augustine then created the Doctrine of Original Sin which stated that sin came from Adam and was passed from father to child and that Jesus was the only one born to a woman who was without this original sin.
On the Grace of Christ, and on Original Sin (Book II)
"Chapter 47 [XLI.]— Sentences from Ambrose in Favour of Original Sin.
It is therefore an observed and settled fact, that no man born of a man and a woman, that is, by means of their bodily union, is seen to be free from sin. Whosoever, indeed, is free from sin, is free also from a conception and birth of this kind. Moreover, when expounding the Gospel according to Luke, he says: It was no cohabitation with a husband which opened the secrets of the Virgin’s womb; rather was it the Holy Ghost which infused immaculate seed into her unviolated womb. For the Lord Jesus alone of those who are born of woman is holy, inasmuch as He experienced not the contact of earthly corruption, by reason of the novelty of His immaculate birth; nay, He repelled it by His heavenly majesty."
Exposition on Psalm 35
"So then the sin of the Lord is that which was caused by sin; because He assumed flesh, of the same lump which had deserved death by sin. For to speak more briefly, Mary who was of Adam died for sin, Adam died for sin, and the Flesh of the Lord which was of Mary died to put away sin."
So Augustine clearly did not share the understanding that Mary was born free of Original Sin as well as Jesus. Before his time there were many different understandings of Original Sin and ancestral sin. Before the Doctrine of Original Sin was accepted, it would not be possible to understand an Immaculate Conception free of Original Sin. Therefore the idea that Mary was born free of Original Sin had not yet begun. I don’t know when the first legitimate source for this was, but it was sometime after Augustine’s time.
Wow. Well defined thoughts on Mary. And who she has been promoted to be.
It seems every one has a spin.
Very well said and stated with examples everyone has seen.
Dut. 13. Let’s pray to this other spirit. Because ??
Well it was once believed that she died and was buried with john in Eph. But when they dug up the grave they didn’t find the body.
So the church found a solution.
You mean it was founded by Constantine? I’m afraid there is plenty of evidence that the Christians that lived before Constantine legalized Christianity believed much that Catholics believe today.
St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote about the Eucharist around 100 AD.
“I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.”
-“Letter to the Romans”, paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.
Just one example. I’m pretty sure no serious historian believes that Constantine started the Catholic Church.
Ask this bloke if Constantine started the Catholic Church.
I have just put out a sign outside my lawn - do not feed the troll.
Having perused his posts, you are right. Seems so. But for those who ask the same questions as he does, I’ll leave my posts up.
One of the things that bothers me is Catholics who would prefer to be Protestants. So they are trying as hard as they can to convert Catholicism and the Catholic Church to Protestantism.
I’m still learning about Catholicism and I didn’t start off with the basic cultural Christianity that most people in the US have picked up by osmosis, so I assume a lot of the things I find weird and off-putting are probably just things I don’t understand clearly.
The only thing so far that bothers me about the Catholics I’ve met in particular is that they seem sort of unfriendly. I went to Mass a couple of weeks ago because I wanted to see what it was like and the only person who said a word to me was the priest as I was leaving. I’d chalk it up to the shock of seeing a hijabi in church, but it seemed like they didn’t really talk to each other either. There was a guy with the biggest crucifix lapel pin I’ve ever seen and he glared at me for a really long time when I came in and sat down.
Hi. I often said this and so I say it again - you are absolutely right. They are definietely a significant level less friendly that your average Protestant churches down the street. Welcome to the Catholic churches.
Sometimes back I went to a Protestant church to attend a talk on an invitation by a friend, who was one of them. When I set foot into their compound, I was treated like a big shot, it really was embarassing for a Catholic like me not used to the VIP treatment when entering a church.
Catholics could very well learn from them.
The reason why Catholics seem to be indiferent to other people is that the church is very big that there is no personal contact and two, they come for worship to fullfil their obligation. Their mind is focused on doing that or on God. Other things can be irritants to them.
The upside would be that a person coming to a Catholic church can come incognito as nobody really bothers about you. Some lapsed Catholics find it difficult to come back but I would tell them - don’t. Nobody really care whether you are here or there. Just come back.
Reuben, I am going to take the chance that you may then understand how farcy it appears when Catholics castigate non-Catholics with statements like " your religion is just Jesus and me etc".