NON-traditional Tridentine Mass?

I am amazed at how even a cursory look shows just how much the 16th century Tridentine Mass differs from the Mass of the early church:

  • The Mass was celebrated in the vernacular of the day/region in the early church. It was not limited to Latin like the later Tridentine Mass.

  • Holy Communion was offered in one’s hands unlike the Tridentine Mass. St. Cyril of Jerusalem (AD 313-386) counseled the Faithful to *“make a throne of your hands in which to receive the King *(in Holy Communion).”]

  • The faithful received Holy Communion under both species.

  • The medieval bullet-proof looking chasubles of the Tridentine Mass look nothing like the tunics of Jesus’ era on Earth. They look/looked silly in all actuality.

  • There were no bells in use before or during the Mass until the 8th century. No Sanctus bells until the thirteenth century.

There must be a great many more differences. Maybe the Novus Ordo Mass was an attempt to get away from the Dark Ages and back to the Mass instituted by Jesus Christ?

Yeah, that was a good try and trying to discredit the one true mass, instituted by our Lord, keep strummin that guitar during that folk rock mass and we can all raise our hand during the “Our Father” and say Glory Be!

Yes you would love to see a charismatic Protestant Mass.

Once you do away with Tradition, you have done away with the religion.

I am not judging anyone who attends the Novus Ordo, as that would be calumny, but there is nothing sacred, nothing religious, nothing pius, nothing that came from our Lord that is part of this travesty that you call a Mass

I hope you see yourself clear to go back to the one true mass as our founding apostles and saints instituted and not a Mason such as Bugnini and John XXIII

[quote=jtnova]Yeah, that was a good try and trying to discredit the one true mass, instituted by our Lord, keep strummin that guitar during that folk rock mass and we can all raise our hand during the “Our Father” and say Glory Be!

[/quote]

This idea of the “one true mass” is a fallacy.

There is no such thing as a “one true mass”. After all each of the Rites have their own Eucharistic service.

For example, the Holy Qurbono of the Maronite Church
the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (Byzantine Rite)
the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great (Byzantine Rite)
the Divine Liurgy of St. James (Byzantine Rite)
the Divine Liturgy according to the Mozarabic Rite (Latin (or Roman) Rite)
the Ambrosian Liturgy (Latin (or Roman) Rite)

The Trad Mass (according to the 1962 Missal) is different than the Mass as layed out by Pope St Pius V. So even it changed.

The Mass was different before Pope St Pius V codified it. So it was not held from the beginning.

[quote=jtnova]Yeah, that was a good try and trying to discredit the one true mass, instituted by our Lord, keep strummin that guitar during that folk rock mass and we can all raise our hand during the “Our Father” and say Glory Be!

Yes you would love to see a charismatic Protestant Mass.

Once you do away with Tradition, you have done away with the religion.

I am not judging anyone who attends the Novus Ordo, as that would be calumny, but there is nothing sacred, nothing religious, nothing pius, nothing that came from our Lord that is part of this travesty that you call a Mass

I hope you see yourself clear to go back to the one true mass as our founding apostles and saints instituted and not a Mason such as Bugnini and John XXIII
[/quote]

In all honesty you must be a parody…

Comments like yours do nothing but keep the “traditionalist” movement viewed as a fringe element within the Church.

In brief, people like you are why more people do not attend the Tridentine Mass AND get actively involved with the parishes who promote them.

[quote=ByzCath]This idea of the “one true mass” is a fallacy.

There is no such thing as a “one true mass”. After all each of the Rites have their own Eucharistic service.

For example, the Holy Qurbono of the Maronite Church
the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (Byzantine Rite)
the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great (Byzantine Rite)
the Divine Liurgy of St. James (Byzantine Rite)
the Divine Liturgy according to the Mozarabic Rite (Latin (or Roman) Rite)
the Ambrosian Liturgy (Latin (or Roman) Rite)

The Trad Mass (according to the 1962 Missal) is different than the Mass as layed out by Pope St Pius V. So even it changed.

The Mass was different before Pope St Pius V codified it. So it was not held from the beginning.
[/quote]

Holy QurBANA

BTW, you probably just made Mr. OneTrueMass’ head explode with this information…

[quote=Franciscum]I am amazed at how even a cursory look shows just how much the 16th century Tridentine Mass differs from the Mass of the early church:

  • The Mass was celebrated in the vernacular of the day/region in the early church. It was not limited to Latin like the later Tridentine Mass.

  • Holy Communion was offered in one’s hands unlike the Tridentine Mass. St. Cyril of Jerusalem (AD 313-386) counseled the Faithful to *“make a throne of your hands in which to receive the King *(in Holy Communion).”]

  • The faithful received Holy Communion under both species.

  • The medieval bullet-proof looking chasubles of the Tridentine Mass look nothing like the tunics of Jesus’ era on Earth. They look/looked silly in all actuality.

  • There were no bells in use before or during the Mass until the 8th century. No Sanctus bells until the thirteenth century.

There must be a great many more differences. Maybe the Novus Ordo Mass was an attempt to get away from the Dark Ages and back to the Mass instituted by Jesus Christ?

[/quote]

Well, lets here choose the analogy of the human person= when one was a child, one thought like a child, when one grew up, one thought like a grown up. To want to take the Church back to its early stages(by the way, back then there WAS more reverence on the part of the people, and those simple people at least had more faith than many in our modern, relativist culture) is like wanting to take a full grown adult back into using diapers. People and THINGS grow up. Hopefully, most catholics who want to take the church BACK into infantile, immature days will too.
Funny how you use here Saint John C. But forget to mention how the ANGELIC DOCTOR/UNIVERSAL DOCTOR: Saint Thomas Aquinas says: "may nothing but the CONSECRATED hands of the priest touch the sacred species. Another example, of maturing and growing up: the church I mean here of course.

[quote=jtnova]Yeah, that was a good try and trying to discredit the one true mass, instituted by our Lord, keep strummin that guitar during that folk rock mass and we can all raise our hand during the “Our Father” and say Glory Be!

Yes you would love to see a charismatic Protestant Mass.

Once you do away with Tradition, you have done away with the religion.

I am not judging anyone who attends the Novus Ordo, as that would be calumny, but there is nothing sacred, nothing religious, nothing pius, nothing that came from our Lord that is part of this travesty that you call a Mass

I hope you see yourself clear to go back to the one true mass as our founding apostles and saints instituted and not a Mason such as Bugnini and John XXIII
[/quote]

It just hit me. You sound a GREAT deal like one of those KJV-only fundie Protestants who believe that 16th century version of the Bible is the only “true” version.

Now I’m really beginning to think you’re nothing but a parody…

[quote=Franciscum]It just hit me. You sound a GREAT deal like one of those KJV-only fundie Protestants who believe that 16th century version of the Bible is the only “true” version.

Now I’m really beginning to think you’re nothing but a parody…
[/quote]

Your constant disrespectful comments and beligerancy is a constant in almost all your posts. What however surprises me here is what I also mentioned to another friend of mine who is a forum member as well, that the MODERATORS have not once as of yet corrected you nor taken you to task for your disrespect of other forum members.
UMMM, a little maturity and logic of argumentation will come in handy here.

[quote=misericordie]Your constant disrespectful comments and beligerancy is a constant in almost all your posts. What however surprises me here is what I also mentioned to another friend of mine who is a forum member as well, that the MODERATORS have not once as of yet corrected you nor taken you to task for your disrespect of other forum members.
UMMM, a little maturity and logic of argumentation will come in handy here.
[/quote]

Given your past postings and your reputation, your comments about me mean absolutely zippo.

jtnova’s comments regarding the Tridentine Mass are so absurd and inaccurate that I think it’s quite likely that he/she is trying to make a parody of the “traditionalist” movement while posing as a “traditionalist” and that’s a serious no-no…

[quote=Franciscum]Given your past postings and your reputation, your comments about me mean absolutely zippo.

jtnova’s comments regarding the Tridentine Mass are so absurd and inaccurate that I think it’s quite likely that he/she is trying to make a parody of the “traditionalist” movement while posing as a “traditionalist” and that’s a serious no-no…
[/quote]

Good point. Even I am having troubling thinking this is real.

Franciscum may be a bit rough around the edges sometimes, I admit. But I also kind of look to him to get to the point without wasting any time :yup:

But there is no EXCUSE for the rude, inflammatory, and obnoxious, and untrue remarks quoted below.

Mis, even if you don’t prefer the N.O. Mass-- do you think for a minute that the majority of us worship at a Mass that can be described by the following???


[quote=Franciscum] Now I’m really beginning to think you’re nothing but a parody…
[/quote]

:hmmm: hmmm. If parody is a new synonym for an old problem-- yes, I think I would prefer that to the alternative.

[quote=shannon e]Franciscum may be a bit rough around the edges sometimes, I admit. But I also kind of look to him to get to the point without wasting any time :yup:

But there is no EXCUSE for the rude, inflammatory, and obnoxious, and untrue remarks quoted below.

Mis, even if you don’t prefer the N.O. Mass-- do you think for a minute that the majority of us worship at a Mass that can be described by the following???


:hmmm: hmmm. If parody is a new synonym for an old problem-- yes, I think I would prefer that to the alternative.
[/quote]

We must admitt that even CARDINAL RATZINGER has said that THEOLOGICALLY speaking the NO mass is not as ACCURATE as the TRIDENTINE MASS theologically. I beleive that’s why well, the Holy Father has given ALL CATHOLICS the right to attend the Tridentine Latin mass(Motu Propio ecclesia dei) and I heard through a source in Rome, that he will soon grant ALL priests the right if they so choose to offer the Tridentine Latin Mass without anyone’s “permission” provincials or bishops.

[quote=misericordie]We must admitt that even CARDINAL RATZINGER has said that THEOLOGICALLY speaking the NO mass is not as ACCURATE as the TRIDENTINE MASS theologically. I beleive that’s why well, the Holy Father has given ALL CATHOLICS the right to attend the Tridentine Latin mass(Motu Propio ecclesia dei) and I heard through a source in Rome, that he will soon grant ALL priests the right if they so choose to offer the Tridentine Latin Mass without anyone’s “permission” provincials or bishops.
[/quote]

I admit that I don’t know much about the nuts and bolts of the history of the Masses-- but I know the most important thing: The NO and the Tri are both valid and both loved as a means to worship our Lord and to receive Him. I also know when it is not reverent, sacred, or valid.

Since I am lacking in details, feel free to send me useful links to good internet sources. I’d appreciate it.

Does anyone think the huge number of converts would have converted if even half of the slander that is slung around about the NO were true??? [abuses exist in all types of Masses-- no need to go there]

As an aside-- can anyone find me a source for conversion stats?
I’ve heard it on EWTN and can’t remember for the life of me…

Peace

[quote=misericordie] the Holy Father has given ALL CATHOLICS the right to attend the Tridentine Latin mass(Motu Propio ecclesia dei)
[/quote]

it is up to the local ordinary to allow and regulate the celebration of the former Mass. Where approved, anyone is free to attend.

and I heard through a source in Rome, that he will soon grant ALL priests the right if they so choose to offer the Tridentine Latin Mass without anyone’s “permission” provincials or bishops.

I heard neo-trads tell me of this for each of the past 7 years.

[quote=Franciscum]Holy QurBANA

[/quote]

I really grow weary of your need to correct me.

I suggest that you go correct the web site of the Official site of the Maronite Patriarch of Antioch and All the East specifically this page The Maronite Liturgy and tell them that Qorbono is wrong.

And while your at that you also need to go to the web site of the Maronite Eparchy of Saint Maron of Brooklyn and tell them that Qurbono as found on the web page the Liturgy is also wrong.

Seems you have an attitude with me for some reason. I do not understand why… I have one more thing to add, either your Roman or your Byzantine (Ruthenian) you are not both as you list.

Yeah, that was a good try and trying to discredit the one true mass, instituted by our Lord, keep strummin that guitar during that folk rock mass and we can all raise our hand during the “Our Father” and say Glory Be!

Yes you would love to see a charismatic Protestant Mass.

Once you do away with Tradition, you have done away with the religion.

I am not judging anyone who attends the Novus Ordo, as that would be calumny, but there is nothing sacred, nothing religious, nothing pius, nothing that came from our Lord that is part of this travesty that you call a Mass

I hope you see yourself clear to go back to the one true mass as our founding apostles and saints instituted and not a Mason such as Bugnini and John XXIII

Well said, that says it all.

  • Joe

[quote=misericordie]We must admitt that even CARDINAL RATZINGER has said that THEOLOGICALLY speaking the NO mass is not as ACCURATE as the TRIDENTINE MASS theologically.
[/quote]

Provide the proof of this.

I beleive that’s why well, the Holy Father has given ALL CATHOLICS the right to attend the Tridentine Latin mass(Motu Propio ecclesia dei) and I heard through a source in Rome, that he will soon grant ALL priests the right if they so choose to offer the Tridentine Latin Mass without anyone’s “permission” provincials or bishops.

Actually you may have the right but it is up the the bishop to provide the Trad Latin Mass. As for the hearsay information you have heard from a friend who heard it from someone in Rome (more conspiricy theory bunk) I do not believe it.

The bishops can fix this easily, by not granting facilities to a priest who wants to publicly celebrate a Mass he doesn’t want.

I have nothiing against the Trad Latin Mass, I have attended it before. I just do not prefer it and I take exception when people act like as you do. That is they act as if the Mass of the Church is not valid, you might not say it but you act like it.

[quote=Franciscum]Maybe the Novus Ordo Mass was an attempt to get away from the Dark Ages and back to the Mass instituted by Jesus Christ?

[/quote]

Perhaps, perhaps not. I recall nothing in the Vatican II documents that I can find indicating that the purpose was to bring the Church out of the “Dark Ages”. Be careful here though, slinging the “Dark Ages” epithet about is often used to discredit the Catholic Church itself. I recommend that you read and understand more about this period. Perhaps then you, like many historians, will begin to refer to it as the “Age of Faith”.

You must admit, though, that the Tridentine Mass had a much longer period of development than the Pauline Mass. The Mass codified at Trent really did reflect the sense of the faith of the people as they grew, matured and became more educated. The same cannot be said of the Pauline Mass. It was a radical ( not gradual as the Tridentine) departure from current practices and came about not to reflect current understanding but to appease Protestants.

[quote=katherine2]it is up to the local ordinary to allow and regulate the celebration of the former Mass. Where approved, anyone is free to attend.

You are so goofy. It is not a former Mass… it is a valid current Mass.

I heard neo-trads tell me of this for each of the past 7 years.
[/quote]

You should have been hearing it for the last 20 years.The permission is in the use of the 1962 Missal, not in permission of saying the TLM. However, the Bishop of Rome, issued his indult (permission) Quattuor abhinc annos. The 1986 Commission of Cardinals examined this indult and determined that no priest of the Roman Rite needs permission to use the 1962 Missal when celebrating the Mass in Latin.

Additionally, JPII in Ecclesia Dei of July 11, 1988 “To those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition, I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations. In this matter I ask for the support of the bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the Church…by a wide and generous apllication of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See, for the use of the Roman Missal…”

Celebrating the TLM requires no approval…it has never been disapproved or relagated to the “former Mass”. JPII just does not want the bishops to re-design the TLM! It must be celebrated without change!

[quote=Munda cor meum]Perhaps, perhaps not. I recall nothing in the Vatican II documents that I can find indicating that the purpose was to bring the Church out of the “Dark Ages”. Be careful here though, slinging the “Dark Ages” epithet about is often used to discredit the Catholic Church itself. I recommend that you read and understand more about this period. Perhaps then you, like many historians, will begin to refer to it as the “Age of Faith”.

You must admit, though, that the Tridentine Mass had a much longer period of development than the Pauline Mass. The Mass codified at Trent really did reflect the sense of the faith of the people as they grew, matured and became more educated. The same cannot be said of the Pauline Mass. It was a radical ( not gradual as the Tridentine) departure from current practices and came about not to reflect current understanding but to appease Protestants.
[/quote]

I thank you for the first paragraph.

On the second, two comments. First, as even many neo-traditionalists will admit, was of the problems from Trent onwards was the inability to have a true, organic development of the Mass. Trent over-regulated and made more gradual reform impossible.

Second, still, the Roman Mass of today stands firmly within Roman liturgical tradition. While it was not to ‘appease’ Protestants, if you are going to make that claim, you might add to the believability by saying it was to appease the Orthodox (concelebration, communion in both forms, standing for communion, no fake deacons and subdeacons, varitable eucharistic prayers, vernacular liturgy, etc.).

It should also be noted that a liturgical movement had been going on for some time preparing the Church for the liturgical renewal. What’s so interesting is that many of the principles of the pre-Counciliar liturgical movement – late reforms to Tridentine practice – are now embraced by neo-traditionalists, often unwittingly as they frequently speak as if these were long standing practices.

On another board, a dear, dear little neo-trad boy was shocked to learn that Gothic chasubles were unauthorized innovations of progressive liturgicalists. He was astounded to learn that conservatives used to send nasty letters to Rome about their unauthorized use (pre-1957). We have talked about the conservative crusade against Latin/Vernacular Missals (a cause they lost around the turn of the century) and the absence of Gregorian Chant from Catholic worship until its 19th century revivial by the progressives.

Lastly, I can remember the 1950’s. Two worship activities pegged you as a liberal – you worshiped at High Mass and/or you worshipped with Negros. And if you did BOTH of those things, God help you – you may as well as had “Commonweal reader” tatooed on your forehead. :smiley:

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