Not abortion & Catholics, rather Catholics having abortions!

There are a few things a bit dicey with this article, as one would expect, but the numbers are solid. Catholics are over represented in the abortion stats.

Of course, we would argue that the moment a Catholic woman has an abortion she has automatically excommunicated herself from teh Church and as long as she meets the three requirements, she has committed a mortal sin.

Yet, so many of these women considered themselves to still be “good” Catholics.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not judging any which way, my concern is why is this happening? Why are our leaders not doing more? Can they do more? These women have placed their souls in serious danger, have killed an innocent child, I think the risks to these women is greater than any of us being called “judgemental”.

Where are we going wrong?

beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/Catholic/2001/01/The-Catholic-Abortion-Paradox.aspx

But what I find so mind boggling, is how can some of these women think contraception and pre-martial sex is wrong, yet will seek to kill their own children?

Unfortunately, there are those who lack the courage to stick to their beliefs through difficult times.

If you think the risk to these women is greater than any of you judging may I direct you to Matt 7:1-5 and Rom 2:1. At least we can find Christ actually talking about not judging. Where He spoke directly of and used the word abortion, is not so easily found. :shrug:

We have too many abortion threads going on at the moment and we’re not going to solve all the world’s issues here on CAF anyway. But just to respond.

This is happening because we live in a free part of the world, with free will. In a democracy made up of many faith beliefs on this issue. And no, under the law there is not much more the bishops can do.

Where are Catholics going wrong? In being so one issue oriented and in taking it to such an extreme. Not open to safe, legal, but rare. Not open even in cases of rape or incest. But only that everyone must come fully to our position. Obviously all this time, effort and resources on one issue and trying to overturn Roe, has not prevented abortion. Nor if the Church is ever successful in it’s effort to fully repeal any legal abortion whatsoever no matter under what circumstances, will there be no more abortion among Catholic women. They will be forced back into the dark age realm of unsafe or backalleys abortions.

Perhaps the Church could be less judging. More loving. Catch flies with honey rather than vinegar. Get back to emphasizing other issues Christ talked about. Then perhaps people might want to be more fully part of the Catholic faith.

Yeah, I noticed. I didn’t really want to add another, but in the other abortion threads there wasn’t really a direction of topic where abortion rates amongst Catholics discussed.

Good point. This does go in a different direction. That’s fine with me. We’re not settling anything anyway on those other threads. :slight_smile: Good luck with this one! :thumbsup: Peace.

Well, here we go. I completely disagree. I think abortion is the worst thing happening in the country, and one of the worst things happening in the world, today. It’s the murder of innocent children, and if not for the good effort of the Church, there would be even more murdered children every day. I think the reason that the anti-abortion movement isn’t working is not because it’s too heavy handed, it’s because not enough people have stood up and taken a stand. Roe vs. Wade was one of the worst things to happen in American history. It has to be reversed. If what we’re doing isn’t working, we need to redouble our efforts.

This is where we part. I think the worst things happening in this country is after people are born they can’t afford quality, affordable healthcare. I would support Medicare for all from womb to grave. Homeless on the streets. The hungry. The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Greed. War.

But don’t worry. Here we not go again because I’ve stated my position and don’t intend to participate in this one. God bless and peace.

I think this goes back to Catholics not being properly formed in their faith.

That’s just part of it though. Through secular logic I came to believe (in my early teens) that the very concept of abortion is horrifying.

Somehow (I don’t know which-how) we need to help people see that the only logical point in life when one becomes human is conception – there is no other dividing line in our lives. And if we are human we are persons. (Some want to deny that even!)

\

Really, is there anything new to any of it?

Yeah, because ‘thou shalt not kill’ is so terribly vague, and there are so many other places where He says abortion is fine and dandy and that children in the womb aren’t deserving of the same rights to life as the rest of us. :shrug:

It’s simple - I can’t think of any circumstance in which I or anyone would be justified in stabbing, asphyxiating, garotting or poisoning a one-day-old child to death (or indeed voluntarily putting it to death in any other way).

Not if I was mentally or financially unable to keep it. I’d adopt it out.
Not if I’d get in trouble for being pregnant. Clearly either I would’ve been raped, in which case no sensible person would condemn me for having the baby and it doesn’t deserve to die if they AREN’T sensible, so again I might adopt it out. OR I would’ve had consensual sex in which case the child doesn’t deserve to die for my choice to do so.
Not even if it was a case of my life or the child’s. I’ve had a fair innings of this life palaver, and would be happy to give someone else the chance to have what I’ve had.

That all being the case, equally I can’t think of any circumstance in which I or anyone would be justified in deliberately and intentionally putting to death a babe in the womb.

Again I don’t want to be active on another abortion thread now but as I’m still online tonight, sigh, I’ll respond to you.

Ahem. If that’s the case, strange then back in OT times when an eye for eye was the practice before Jesus added a “but” in Matthew 5:38-39, that the death of a fetus did not warrant the same as killing the mother.

Ex 21:22-24 If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman’s husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award. But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

And where are all these places where He even mentioned the word abortion? Don’t bother. As I doubt you’d be the first Biblical scholar to find “abortion” mentioned in Scripture.

But the poor, caring for the sick, the hungry, the thirsty, the prisoner, and peace?

Some might even argue body + breath but an embryo has fully developed lungs? See the different faith beliefs and why everything can’t be only our Catholic way?

You guys like to add to Scripture don’t you?

But this thread is supposed to be about why Catholics have abortions. So carry on with that.

Good night, God bless and indeed peace.

And where are all these places where He even mentioned the word abortion? Don’t bother. As I doubt you’d be the first Biblical scholar to find “abortion” mentioned in Scripture.

[quote][SIGN]You guys like to add to Scripture don’t you?

[/quote]

I believe LilyM is being facetious. She is not saying that she is unclear about the meaning of “Thou shall not kill”, nor does she believe that the word “abortion” can be found in the Bible. Her statement is ironic.

Regarding my opinion to the topic, the diversity of cultures in our Country has forced us to become empathetic and tolerant of ethnic variations as a means to remain united. Remember the Civil War? This forbearance became a major requirement for the survival of One Nation under God with liberty and justice for all. It is referred to as “freedom”, “inalienable rights”, and “independence”, even though we have an entire Justice System who identifies their social responsibility to be that of amending our founders’ original declarations to accommodate of increasingly contemporary concerns, no matter how far from the true intentions they land, under the auspices of inclusive diversity.

Western Culture’s concept of an ideal civilization includes attributes like “open-minded”, “accepting”, and “non-judgemental” to define the perfect social member. The conundrum is that an ideal can never be attained—it’s the proverbial carrot on the stick–and somewhere in the mid-80’s to mid-90’s all these virtues for which we were told to strive got overwhelming, but because having them somehow qualified one as enlightened, we pretended to be aiming at the perfect ideal. Everything was moving so fast we just got swept along. We were tired working 12 hour days to buy the houses, the cars, the clothes, the vacations, and all the other things we couldn’t afford to support the consumer mentality that to ensure the survival of a Capitalist Society, that we lost our own opinions…our own morals…

HOWEVER, even though many issues in life can be argued, some things we just know. For example, although the hypothetical quandary about the “tree falling in the woods with nobody around…” and the “chicken or the egg?” can be amusing banter when bored, we all know deep down in the recesses of our primal knowledge that yes, the tree did make a sound, and that you can’t get an egg without a chicken. Some things we just know. How many people are able to watch those sad, gut wrenching commercials of animals living in atrocious settings, or the manner in which livestock are herded into slaughterhouses? Like me, everybody I ask divert their attention away from the TV screen as soon as they Sarah McLaughlin begin singing “In the Arms Of An Angel”…. We are sickened because we just know.

Thus, every for-all-intents-and-purposes-sane human being who is able to believe some things without being able to concretely verify them, and who is able to recognize and commiserate with the pain and agony of pets and livestock, knows that abortion is indeed murder.

We could be politically correct and say that abortion is a means of “termination”, or that “abortion ceases the gestational phase of an embryo or fetus”, or that “the pregnancy was concluded by induced expiration of the uterine contents”, but still we know.

So, with regard to “Where are Catholics going wrong?”, it is easy to see that we have been indoctrinated by means of over-work, self-preservation, and fear tactics, into tired, greedy, distrustful, apathetic relativists in jeopardy of loosing all inherent moral integrity because we irrationally distort the intent of “Freedom”.

It isn’t Catholics who have gone wrong—people have—some of who, for one reason or another, still think they’re practicing Catholics. Ignorance requires enlightenment. The hard core TRUTH with regard to the “Club Rules” is no longer available to the average, exhausted, empty, disinterested, skeptical politically correct lemmings . Those who chose the life to serve have confused the term with “to please”, “to placate”, “to pacify”, “to keep the collection basket full so the Parish will stay open”, “to not rock the boat”, “to get ‘em in and get ‘em out because I have 4 Masses on Sunday”….We need Shepherds who will act decisively when the wolf is circling the flock. We don’t need buddies, we need Fathers. The flock is all confused. Some think they are the Shepherd. I have a friend who actually believes she is an American Catholic, (i.e. modern, contemporary) as opposed to a European Catholic (more traditional, quaint) and is completely [self] assured that both “ways” are sanctioned, albeit somewhat in a sort of clandestine acknowledgement. If there are “Free-to-be-You-and-Me”, live-and-let-live, pro-choice, individuals sitting in pews actually believing they are members of the Roman Catholic Religion, it is not their un-catechized, un-formed, ignorant brain’s fault. When Religious were teachers in Catholic Schools no one graduated not knowing the magisterial teachings of the Faith (granted the methods of communicating the message tended to vary from one Sister to the next,:eek: but we knew…). However, the “guys” started bending the rules, the women left the convents, the schools closed, nobody was left to do the literal teaching, and here we are today. There are few Priests left who have the backbone to grab the lead lemmings and point them in the right direction, especially if their Bishop happens to be one of those at the head of the pack. The flock needs to be fed because they’re already scattering to search on their own. I have been blessed to find such a no-holds-barred Priest, but it took a lot of looking. If you too have been thus Graced, invite your friends to join you for Sunday Mass. Catholicism and abortion are not about relativism and personal interpretations.

That’s what I think.

I can’t verify the results myself, but I also would not be surprised if it were true. Nominal catholics are also no different than the secular world on almost EVERY issue: divorce, suicide, regular murder, petty theft, etc. “Catholic” has in this country become a cultural relic descriptor that doesn’t tell you anything about a person’s beliefs.

I do find myself apalled that people who obviously ARE more than just “cultural catholics” cannot see the moral difference between a society’s inability to pay for expensive technological medical care for all and the intentional killing of another human being. I suggest that CMatt volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center and experience for himself what the world looks like for a woman in crisis pregnancy. Vast numbers of them are not CHOOSING abortion, but are being coerced into it by boyfriends, spouses, friends, even parents! This will not ever change as long as people are suckered into the “safe, legal and rare” BS propaganda put out by the abortion industry. Time after time evidence has been produced that these facilities close their eyes and ears and push abortion onto women who desperately want another option, but are told there are none.

:thumbsup:
A well thought-out post, but I really liked that line I’ve bolded in red.
I’ve never heard of the ‘American Catholic’ vs. ‘European Catholic’ idea before, but my impression is that there are many followers of that kind of thinking.

I have to agree with the part of not being properly formed. My Daughter teaches in the public school system that has allot of Hispanic with a very high amount being catholic (which my daughter catholic) While she can’t say anything alond religious lines she can (if careful) answer questions the kids ask. An opportunity came up with such a question about birth control and abortion and why the bishops were so against the healthcare bill. My daughter then could explain some of it and she actually had to explain what abortion actually was to these 8th graders. They had no idea what abortion actually was and thought it was nothing worst than using a condom. If our young are this badly informed then this would explain some of the reason for the high numbers. Wish my daughter could have done more like educate them on their faith which their parents are not doing.

This study is from 1994-1995.

Good point Matt, thanks :slight_smile: Maybe that’s why, though the Jews find abortion an abomination, they allow for termination of pregnancy when the life of the woman is in danger. The health of the woman is a priority, even though children are always welcome and cherished.

As to Cathlics, I know a fellow Catholic (a friend of mine) who was very well catechized, and her mother ran a marian center. But when my friend was in an unhappy marriage, cheated on her husband and wound up pregnant, she had an abortion. She knew full well the teachings of the Church and was raised in a Catholic environment. Her mom never know about this, but I agree that when push comes to shove, people will get themselves out of trouble rather than take responsibility for their actions — including Catholics.

What can the Church do about it? They can’t do anything about it outside the Vatican. If they can’t get their own followers to adhere to their laws, how can they get those who don’t follow the Catholic religion to do so? They’re trying to do it by force by trying to change the laws, and they might succeed in getting some kind of control over it. But I believe abortion will always be available legally for cases of rape and when the woman’s life is in danger. As for the “convenience” abortions, they’ll always be obtained by those who want them whether they’re legal or illegal. It’s too late now to change the mindset of this country (and others) now after all these years. Add that to the fact that the Church considers artificial birth control as aborficants and forbids any kind of birth control outside of NFP, which is not appealing to most people.

IMOHO, I think part of the problem is the tight rigid and unbending rules of the Church, which just make the majority of people not take them seriously, and just do what they want and rationalizing that the Church is “just old-fashioned”. The more tightly they try to sqeeze people and try to control them, the more people will pull back and try to get free of their grip. For example, most people know that the Church forbids birth control, yet the majority of catholic women are also on birth control. I don’t see that changing either. The Church’s teachings on abortion in cases of rape, and threat of the woman’s life push people who are on the fence, to the side of pro-choice.

People are having sex and loving it, they’re not going to change. They don’t believe sex outside of marriage is wrong and that’s where the problem is. You’d have to convince people that sex outside of marriage is immoral, self destructive and self defeating before getting them to not consider abortion or birth control, because these things allow them the freedom to enjoy the life they’ve chosen. It’s going to take some heavy-duty behavior modification to change the way people view sex, which ties directly into birth control and abortion.

Even those who are married don’t want to have kid after kid after kid after kid, year after year, and they’re NOT going to abstain from having sex with their spouse. NFP works for some people and it just doesn’t for others. Those who believe that sex and marriage is for the sole purpose of having children, and as many as possible, with the alternative being abstinence, are in the minority and that’s a fact of life. Hearing someone say that they totally swear by NFP while they’re pregnant with their 7th kid just isn’t effective.

The only way the Church can make people not have abortions is to make them not want to have them. And like I said above, that’ll be some serious behavior modification. Going at them with an iron fist is just going to do the opposite. I’ve been chaste all my life, and the rules of the Church are unreasonable even to me, try convincing someone who thinks I am crazy for being chaste.

Then there’s the super-uber-scrupulous who take the CCC and encyclicals, twist what they say, and tell married couples that if they are done having children, they should be celibate. These folks don’t consider any careful thought (with the help of CCC and encyclicals) given by said couple with regard to their own ability to support and care for children, even after they talk to a priest and get his blessing, the super-uber-scrupulous will contradict everything the couple and their priest says and insists that the couple is “sinning” by using NFP. I’m tellling you, it’s hard to take the Church seriously when stuff like that is said to couples. And it’s hard to modify peoples’ behavior when they don’t take you seriously…

So — I don’t know what the Church will do to make Catholics stop having abortions. They would have to formulate a plan to change the way Catholics think about sex and sexual behavior. And I guess they could enforce the automatic excommunication, but the pews will be empty. And not only that, they may not care.

Hey Cmatt,

what do you make of the argument put forth right here at Catholic Answers regarding your interpretation of the Exodus passage? As I understand the CA argument, the law of retribution would have already applied to a woman, and that the passge actually addresses an early delivery with no injury versus death to the baby? It seems Tertullian was of this opinion as well.

I suppose a relevant, but not definitive, inquiry would also be how orthodox Jews have interpreted and interpret the passage.

New Jerusalem’s translation could support this, and RSV appears unclear to me. Is your translation NAB? D-R supports your interpretation as far as I can tell.

That’s certainly true.

I did know a woman who told me, with a chuckle, that she ticked teh “catholic” box on the abortion form, despite being a hard core Catholic hating atheist, because “I wanted to make them look bad, haha”.

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