Novus Ordo and Traditionalists

Hello everyone,

I normally don’t venture out of the comfort-zone (i.e., the Eastern Christianity forum), but I wanted to ask a question which may have some relevance for East-West relations in the future, and I think this is the best place to ask it:

What is it about the Novus Ordo that Traditionalists do not like (aside from the vernacular)? From what I understand, Traditionalists say it is invalid.

Thank you ahead of time.


Umm…its an over generalisation to say that Traditionalists do not like the use of vernacular or say that the NO is invalid. In fact actually saying that the NO is invalid, is really pushing the limits since is was promulgated using valid authority.

Rather Traditionalist lament at the loss of the sense of sacred, clerics ignoring the rubrics, the general forgetfulness of the faithful when it comes to Sacred Tradition and poorly translated vernacular responses.

If a traditionalist says the Novus Ordo is invalid, it really is verging on Sedevacantism, and is definately schismatic. The Church cannot promulgate a Mass that is intrinsically invalid, this would most definately suggest that the gates of Hell have prevailed.

The majority of traditionalists, myself included, are what would be classed as ‘indult catholics’. I.e. we go to the Tridentine Mass indults which are allowed by the Church and sanctioned by the local Bishop, and we are fully loyal, and in communion with Rome.

damerzel85 said it quite well:

Rather Traditionalist lament at the loss of the sense of sacred, clerics ignoring the rubrics, the general forgetfulness of the faithful when it comes to Sacred Tradition and poorly translated vernacular responses.

Some traditionalists regard the translated versions of the NO as being of doubtful validity, or say outright that it is invalid, due to the faulty transalations of ‘Pro multis’ in some languages. One of the key issues here also is whether only the words “This is my blood” are necessary.

(Aside, I am wondering whether this will be the restarting of our epic threads on the subject)

New: Institut du Bon Pastoeur

I cant read Italian :slight_smile:

There are some articles about this new french institute. I
t’s composed by ex-fsspx priests and seminarist.
FSSPX had already lost a lot of parts, and it continues to lost priests. (About 40, from the beginnig of Benedict XVI’s pontificate)
I think that Fellay (the head of FSSPX) has to choise: peace with Rome, or his fraternity spopulated.
If Benedict XVI will grant a general indult for old rite, i think there will not be future for FSSPX.

(Sorry for my english…)


If someone is interested there is this forum, which is dedicated all to traditionalism faithful to Rome. :slight_smile:

I agree, to an extent.
In the immediate future, we will need the FSSP more than anything, if B16 installs a universal indult. Priests today don’t know how to say Tridentine Mass. They aren’t trained to do it. So, who will they naturally run to?
Their ranks would swell also due to the probable influx of SSPX priests who laud the Holy Fathers decision.

But, I see that later on down the track, seminarys will start teaching the Tridentine, and the need for the FSSP will diminish. I don’t think they’ll dissappear completely - the FSSP do much more than celebrate TLM, they use the old breviary, and everything else also, they’ll stay alive with those who want more than TLM, but they will certaily diminish.

Perhaps they will stay alive, but with a lot of problems. I hope there will be a “peace” with Rome. I hope all traditionalism can collaborate: FSSPX, FSSP, Insistitutm Christi Regis Summi Sacerdotis etc…

When you typed FSSPX, i assumed you meant Fraternity of St Peter.
But you meant Society of St Pius X…
Idiotic, i am…

I know not about the future of the SSPX…
There are two possibilities:

  1. They will all shift to the RCC after a universal indult has been passed (highly unlikely though), or
  2. Those who want to go to the RCC will do so, and the more radical ones who believe that the NO is invalid will stay as they are, and continue as a really, REALLY schismatic society.

Perhaps the most radical one could join sedevacantism, event if actually they “hate” sedevantists. In Italy sedevantists hope that SSPX will make peace with Rome, because they hope to have more faithfuls, and more priests, perhaps.

I can speak only as one who has recently come to appreciate the Tridentine mass. The overwhelming vast majority of people we might call “Traditionalists” really don’t have harsh feelings toward the Novus Ordo mass. They just lament what appears to be a “stripping down” of Catholic mystery and reverence, which is often associated with the Novus Ordo, and look forward to the liturgical reforms coming soon. There are those who promote the idea that the Novus Ordo is invalid. But they are the exception to the norm of traditionalist Catholics. Unfortunately, that small exception has an unusually large pulpit to preach from, in part because of circumstances in the English-speaking world – particularly the USA.

The general indult for the celebration of the Tridentine mass was promulgated by JP2 back in 1988, simultaneously with the excommunication of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre (founder of the SSPX). The pope wanted to make it clear to the world, that the excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre did not constitute a papal ban on the Tridentine mass. The indult allowed the Tridentine to be celebrated anywhere, with the approval of the local bishop. Therein lies ‘the catch’ that has allowed sedevacatists and the SSPX to take firm root in places like the United States, where not all bishops allow the Tridentine to be celebrated in their diocese.

When a local bishop, of a large enough diocese, refuses to allow the Tridentine to be celebrated, he effectively alienates a small percentage of his flock who desire it. Some of these people feel they have nowhere to turn, and that’s when the SSPX (or sedevacatists) swoop down in on them to “supply” ministry to their spiritual needs. It isn’t long before the SSPX, sedevacatist, or sometimes both types, are firmly entrenched in the jurisdiction of that diocese. Once that happens, the leaders of these organization now have an unusually large pulpit to speak from, giving it the illusion that they speak for all traditionalist Catholics in that region, when in reality they don’t.

I happen to live in one such diocese, and I can vouch that this is exactly what has happened here. The SSPX is firmly entrenched in our city, and it’s parish is growing rapidly. They’ve already outgrown two chapels, and are in the process of purchasing a third large enough to accommodate their rapid growth. They’re even producing candidates for their SSPX seminary. No other church in our diocese has a growth rate that even approaches that of the SSPX parish. If the bishop doesn’t do something soon, they will threaten to become an “alternate Catholic Church” in our diocese.

Personally, I’ve attended an SSPX mass twice, and I’ve decided that I’ll never go back. There is a spirit (or attitude) of schism there that I want nothing to do with. I’ll wait until out bishop is ready to start a Tridentine mass under his own jurisdiction. When that happens I believe the growth of the local SSPX parish will be significantly stunted, and traditionalists in our diocese will finally have a voice that is reasonable and temperate. I’ve seen this happen in St. Louis and Kansas City where the local bishops not only allow Tridentine masses, but regularly participate in them. The SSPX and sedevacatists are now floundering in those areas. Given enough time, and enough support for the Tridentine from the local bishops, they may eventually fold up operation there entirely. Either that, or become totally irrelevant. Most traditionalists I know wouldn’t mind seeing that at all.

I have attended four PX masses and while I love the devotion and liturgy, I do find the folks a bit lacking in charity to the hard working, mostly orthodox, “novus ordo” priests. This is why I choose not to attend. I do support the overall goals of the PX Society but do not communicate with them. I wish nothing but the very best for Bishop Felley and his priests. Full communion with Rome would be AWESOME BABY !!!

I pretty much agree with you Steve. I spent a number of years affiliated with the SSPX Chapel in Post Falls, ID. but left in 1988 when the “schism” was declared. I’ve been struggling with the NO Mass ever since. I have found several very reverent NO Masses around Portland, OR. Still and all I really miss the Tridentine Mass.

You do realize you can still attend a Tridentine mass outside of the SSPX don’t you? There are other Tridentine priestly fraternities and institutes, in perfectly good standing with Rome. You can find them by simply visiting the website for ‘Una Voce.’

Yes, I am acutely aware of TLM available within a two hour drive (each way).

Naturally they are very conveniently located in the downtown or industrial areas and at 8:00 am in the morning. But yes I do attend periodically. But its not very convenient and very costly. Sring, summer and early fall are the limits of TLM season. The weather prohibits long drives unless you are masochistic

After that its back to the best(most reverent) NO I can find and that takes some searching. We do have some hope for a reverent NO locally, if the priests aren’t relocated.

There are no FSSP or ICK parishes in either the Seattle or Portland diceses.

Brothers and Sisters:

I personally know a Catholic priest who says the Ordo Missae 1970 in Latin as his standard worship (no Indult needed) ad orientum and with as much reverence, devotion and mystery as the ritual allows. He’s in Florida, and I’m in CA, so I can’t attend his masses. But if I lived in Fl, or he were at a parish in La, I wouldn’t be at St. Mary’s.

I also know another parish which is trying to do Gregorian chant every week and to do Reverent Masses as the norm - I know this is difficult in this Archdiocese. There’s a thin line I can’t discuss, but that’s why I and several others including a few “exiles” from the Cathedral stay at St. Mary’s, which has very reverent and devout Masses which preserve the mystery of the Liturgy.

Except for the 16th Century English, and the fact the Liturgy isn’t silent, a Traditionalist would fell at home.

God willing, the Traditional Anglican Communion will be in union with Rome by the end of this decade (I’m basing the timeline on how long it took to negotiate the Union of Brest and subtracting time based on need and communications). I would hope this would happen before the Anglican Communican falls apart.

Prayers would always be appreciated.

YBIC, Michael

I still miss the Tridentine Mass, but if the translations are accurate and the rubrics are followed, the NO Mass can be just as reverent and edifying, whether in English, Latin, Spanish, or ??. Sometimes when a celebrant veres off somewhere beyond the missal, I find myself quietly reverting to rudimentary altarboy Latin.

From what I have heard from the traditionalist here, I believe this is the basic arguement.

I have to agree that 90+% of the traditionalist that I have seen posting here in the last couple of years would never deny the validity of the normative Mass, though. The majority are charitable, solid and faithful Catholics who have a love for the TLM for various reasons.

Though I am not Eastern Rite, I am somewhat of an outsider, being a convert after decades as a Baptist. I can appreciate the love of tradition that they have for the Church.

I just wish all Baptist would convert en masse (pun) so we could have a Baptist Rite Catholic.

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