Novus Ordo in Latin?


#1

Why isn’t it more common for parishes to offer a Novus Ordo mass in Latin? Or is it common, and I’m just not fortunate/observant enough to recognize it? I’ve only ever seen videos of the Novus Ordo in Latin, but I would love to attend such a mass. I’m a Classical Studies major, focusing on Latin and Ancient Greek, so I’m adequate at following the TLM. However, since I’m more familiar with the order of the Novus Ordo, I feel like a modern Latin mass would be a great way for me to enjoy the Latin (a language that I love ceaselessly) without getting lost and losing focus on what’s important. Also, I’m lucky enough to have a big Missale Romanum all in Latin, so I’d love to be able to use that to look up that day’s mass’ different Latin prayers, antiphons, etc. before going to mass. Is this just a pipe dream? Why don’t more churches offer this?


#2

[quote="Catholic4Christ, post:1, topic:280625"]
Why isn't it more common for parishes to offer a Novus Ordo mass in Latin? Or is it common, and I'm just not fortunate/observant enough to recognize it? I've only ever seen videos of the Novus Ordo in Latin, but I would love to attend such a mass. I'm a Classical Studies major, focusing on Latin and Ancient Greek, so I'm adequate at following the TLM. However, since I'm more familiar with the order of the Novus Ordo, I feel like a modern Latin mass would be a great way for me to enjoy the Latin (a language that I love ceaselessly) without getting lost and losing focus on what's important. Also, I'm lucky enough to have a big Missale Romanum all in Latin, so I'd love to be able to use that to look up that day's mass' different Latin prayers, antiphons, etc. before going to mass. Is this just a pipe dream? Why don't more churches offer this?

[/quote]

I agree that there should be more Latin OF Masses. Chicago has a couple and are pretty well attended.


#3

They do exist, but they are rare, yes. I believe the freely-available EF is putting them out of business, so to speak. In fact, the infamous Fr. Z subscribes to this opinion as well. I would love to have a Latin NO near me. Alas, it won't happen. My pastor has an aversion to Latin even though the choir master loves it. I think most priests who appreciate Latin usually go all out and offer the EF.

Most large cities do offer one or more such Masses. Chicago has St. John Cantius, for example. Wisconsin has the world-famous St. Agnes. So they exist, but you really do have to look for them.

St. Catherine of Siena offers a NO Latin mass on Sundays. The church is in Great Falls, VA, which seems to be some 260 miles from your location. Perhaps there is one closer, I don't know.


#4

[quote="YoungTradCath, post:3, topic:280625"]
They do exist, but they are rare, yes. I believe the freely-available EF is putting them out of business, so to speak. In fact, the infamous Fr. Z subscribes to this opinion as well.

[/quote]

That's interesting! I would expect it to be the other way around!


#5

[quote="YoungTradCath, post:3, topic:280625"]
They do exist, but they are rare, yes. I believe the freely-available EF is putting them out of business, so to speak. In fact, the infamous Fr. Z subscribes to this opinion as well.

[/quote]

Just to check, you are aware that "infamous" doesn't actually mean "more than famous," right?


#6

[quote="YoungTradCath, post:3, topic:280625"]
St. Catherine of Siena offers a NO Latin mass on Sundays. The church is in Great Falls, VA, which seems to be some 260 miles from your location. Perhaps there is one closer, I don't know.

[/quote]

Actually my home is in Raleigh, NC. I'm just in school here, but thanks for taking the time to look that up! Only Latin mass near me back home is a TLM once a month, unfortunately.


#7

[quote="Catholic4Christ, post:6, topic:280625"]
Actually my home is in Raleigh, NC. I'm just in school here, but thanks for taking the time to look that up! Only Latin mass near me back home is a TLM once a month, unfortunately.

[/quote]

Ah. I don't really see what the practical difference is in this regard between an EF Mass and a NO Mass in Latin. You hear basically exactly the same thing except the Canon of Mass. The EF Kyrie (Greek, but meh), Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, Pater Noster, and all of the Proper prayers and antiphons are said or sung aloud just as they are in the NO. The structure of the Mass is basically exactly the same except that the EF has the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and the Last Gospel while the OF does not, and the OF has the Prayers of the Faithful while the EF does not.

What about the order of the EF is unfamiliar to you? Admittedly, the sit-stand-kneel stuff is somewhat different, but the textual order is just about the same.


#8

I know in Connecticut we are stretched pretty thin when it comes to priests. In Bridgeport, their are exactly 40 candidates for ordination, and exactly 40 priests expected to retire in the next ten years. Throughout the three dioceses in my state, several parishes have to share a priest.

Throughout Connecticut, there are several languages available serving pockets of immigrants and second generation communities. But with so few priests, and no domestic population of Latin speakers, a Latin OF is just not realistic :(.

Remember, priests in general are only supposed to celebrate one, maybe two masses a day. With the shortages we’ve been experiencing, they’ve been given an indult to celebrate three masses, sometimes more. We have to be careful not to over work our priests, an already demanding vocation.

At my home parish, our church is busting at the seems during the two morning masses, and we have only one priest. If he suddenly started speaking in all Latin during mass, a lot of people would be confused - we’ve only just gotten “and with your spirit” down! :smiley:


#9

[quote="Catholic4Christ, post:1, topic:280625"]
Why isn't it more common for parishes to offer a Novus Ordo mass in Latin?

[/quote]

Because most people want to participate in the celebration of the Mass in English .


#10

[quote="runningdude, post:8, topic:280625"]
I
Throughout Connecticut, there are several languages available serving pockets of immigrants and second generation communities. But with so few priests, and no domestic population of Latin speakers, a Latin OF is just not realistic :(.D

[/quote]

But unlike all those other languages, a canidate for priesthood is supposed to be trained to say say the Mass in Latin, and is even expected to keep up on the Latin.

The seminary in the Archdiocese of Detroit has been in line with that mandate for years.

In fact, I know serveral who have taken it one step further, and have spent a summer with the priests of St. John Cantius in Chicago learning the rubrics of the Extraordinary Form. They now assist at the various EF parishes whenever one of the regular priests is unavailable.


#11

[quote="arkwright, post:9, topic:280625"]
Because most people want to participate in the celebration of the Mass in English .

[/quote]

Well, not quite. "Most people" in the Church aren't English speaking. In my area most want to attend Mass in French.

There are a few Latin Masses around. Our abbey does a hybrid: the Propers and Ordinary are in Gregorian chant (Latin, Greek Kyrie), the rest in French plainchant. It works pretty well.


#12

There's one during the week in a neighboring parish -- nothing on Sundays. That parish, incidentally, offers far more Masses for Spanish-speaking parishoners (and the parish is split between Anglo and Hispanic).

Going to a Latin-language Mass is, for me, similar to going to Mass in any foreign language. I have to read a translation of it (if provided). At least the Latin Mass (usually) has the readings in English and the homily is always in English and not Latin. At the Spanish-language Mass, everything is in Spanish, which I barely comprehend!

The Latin Mass does have Gregorian chant, which is really wonderful. Bonus!


#13

[quote="arkwright, post:9, topic:280625"]
Because most people want to participate in the celebration of the Mass in English .

[/quote]

Roughly only about 5% of worldwide Catholic Masses are in English. Not only that but in English-speaking countries, Catholics are in the minority and of those who are Catholics there are only 25% who go to Mass regularly.


#14

[quote="Catholic4Christ, post:6, topic:280625"]
Actually my home is in Raleigh, NC. I'm just in school here, but thanks for taking the time to look that up! Only Latin mass near me back home is a TLM once a month, unfortunately.

[/quote]

Both Latin forms of the Mass are valid and also have Greek and Hebrew. The three languages are representative of the inscription above the cross which was written in those three languages but you probably already knew that.


#15

[quote="ProVobis, post:13, topic:280625"]
Roughly only about 5% of worldwide Catholic Masses are in English. Not only that but in English-speaking countries, Catholics are in the minority and of those who are Catholics there are only 25% who go to Mass regularly.

[/quote]

Also in response to "arkwright":

Not to mention that Sacrosanctum Concilium called for the use of Latin to be retained.


#16

We have a Latin NO mass on the first Sunday of the Month at the 7:30am Mass at St Leo's in Fairfax VA. However, that is not advertised anywhere. so if you are looking for one best to ask around at places like CAF. Then again we do not advertise or list the gregorian chant choir will be chanting at it also and doing the reponses.


#17

[quote="drforjc, post:15, topic:280625"]
Also in response to "arkwright":

Not to mention that Sacrosanctum Concilium called for the use of Latin to be retained.

[/quote]

As does Pope John XXIII's Veterum Sapientia, which is still binding to my understanding.

papalencyclicals.net/John23/j23veterum.htm


#18

And Pope Benedict’s Letter on the Eucharist " Sacramentum Caritas", specifically para 62 is devoted entirely to the use of Latin

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html


#19

Is there or has anyone seen a NO in Latin ad orientem?


#20

[quote="Brendan, post:10, topic:280625"]
But unlike all those other languages, a canidate for priesthood is supposed to be trained to say say the Mass in Latin, and is even expected to keep up on the Latin.

The seminary in the Archdiocese of Detroit has been in line with that mandate for years.

In fact, I know serveral who have taken it one step further, and have spent a summer with the priests of St. John Cantius in Chicago learning the rubrics of the Extraordinary Form. They now assist at the various EF parishes whenever one of the regular priests is unavailable.

[/quote]

Well, yeah, priest learn Latin, but there are no native speakers in the United States at least. No stable community of native speakers for a priest to dedicate one of his allotted masses to serve.


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