Numbers Game on Paul and Peter

Originally Posted by Atemi forums.catholic.com/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
A simple search on Blue Letter Bible brought up 158 references to “Peter” and 164 references to “Paul.”

This can be adjusted with a little homework, but it seems clear to me that “Paul” is mentioned more by the Holy Spirit in the NT than Peter.

oh oh oh, the Paul is mentioned more than any Peter argument. Let me diffuse this now.

Paul vs Peter in Scripture

This is done via a SQL search.

First of all let’s us exclude those verses where the Author refers to himself by his name.

First Let us do a search on verses that contain all of Peter’s names. Those being:
Peter, Simon, Cephas, and Kephas.

I get 200 verses: Now Lets break it down:

Matthew = 30 verses ( 1 of these denotes Simon the Cyrenian )
Mark = 27 ( 1 of these denotes Simon the Cyrenian )
Luke = 31 ( 1 of these denotes Simon the Cyrenian )
John = 38
Acts = 62 ( 5 of these refer to another Simon )
1st Corinthians = 4
Galations = 6
1st and 2nd Peter = 2 ( will exclude these two from the total count )

Total verses using Peter in some form or another = 190 from 7 different books.

Now let us do a search on Paul and Saul:

I get 180 verses : Peter beats him out on this count by using the 190 count alone.

Acts = 151
Romans = 1 ( will exclude these from the total count )
1st Corithians = 7 ( will exclude these from the total count )
2nd Corithians = 2 ( will exclude these from the total count )
Galatians = 2 ( will exclude these from the total count )
Ephesians = 2 ( will exclude these from the total count )
Phillipians = 1 ( will exclude these from the total count )
Colossians = 3 ( will exclude these from the total count )
1 Thessalonians = 2 ( will exclude these from the total count )
2 Thessalonians = 2 ( will exclude these from the total count )
1 Timothy = 1 ( will exclude these from the total count )
2 Timothy = 1 ( will exclude these from the total count )
Titus = 1 ( will exclude these from the total count )
Philemon = 3 ( will exclude these from the total count )
2nd Peter = 1

So the numbers are

Peter = 190
Paul = 152

Paul is mentioned 152 times by an outsider in only two books and 151 of those are in the book of Acts written by Luke who was his disciple, and Luke only lists Pauls name to clarify who is talking and likewise for Peter in the same book.

Discounting the Book of Acts since it is primarily about Peter and Paul then the numbers are:

Peter = 128
Paul = 1

I humbly ask . . . so what?

What difference does it make who is mentioned more than the other?? I don’t understand your point.

non-Catholics tend to make a point that because “Paul” appears more times then “Peter” that Paul is more important then Peter and therefore Paul was actually the head of the Earlier.

Oh boy. :confused:
What part of “…I (Paul) had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews.” don’t people understand? Gal2:7

How could one be more important than the other? How is this possible?

Who is more important within the Church, a Pope or a Bishop?

The claim that is made that since “Paul” is listed more times in the Bible than “Peter” and that Paul had more books than Peter indicates to the non-catholic that Paul was an “Equal Head” if not the “Actual Head” of the Early Church.

Of course the notion that Paul had more writings can also be argued. Peter, it is often argued, dictated much of his sermons to Mark, and Mark then wrote the Gospel of Mark. The Gospels of Matthew and of Luke at th every least parts of the Gospel of Mark. Therefore, one can say that Peter had a much larger hand in the writing of the NT.

Good Point.

Actually, it is Catholics who constantly mention that Peter is mentioned the most. This is in all the run-of-the-mill apologetics material.

The whole reason it was mentioned in the other thread is because a Catholic said that Peter was mentioned more.

So, no.

Non-Catholics just tend to correct these immaterial assumtions.

Immaterial? Interesting opinion.

I noticed that Atemi did not refute anything in post #1.

I think it’s more important to note that Peter is always mentioned first in order, which denotes a position over the others…
Passage Matthew 10:2:

2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

Passage Acts 1:13:
13When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James.

he is also mentioned by name, when the others are just called disciples…
Passage Acts 2:14:

Peter Addresses the Crowd
14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say.

Passage Matthew 26:37:
37He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.

Yes, that is a very significant point not lost on honest Biblical scholars. It is also honest to say that Peter and Paul had huge roles in the early Church and throughout the course of history.

Bump for Atemi

Part 1:

No. Actually, in this context, it is the "Peter is mentioned more than Paul" argument. Not only that, but it is the "Peter is mentioned more than all the Apostles combined" argument.

You missed the fact that, in the thread you quote, it was a Catholic who employed this argument, not a Protestant.

Originally Posted by Mannyfit75
Here is some taste of the information you might seek.

Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).

Of course, Manny took that from Scripture Catholic, of all places.

So yes, if you can somehow diffuse other Catholics from constantly making these claims, it would be appreciated.

Paul vs Peter in Scripture

This is done via a SQL search.

First of all let’s us exclude those verses where the Author refers to himself by his name.

Why?

The true Author of Scripture is God Himself, and He chose to mention Apostles by name.

As I said:

“it seems clear to me that “Paul” is mentioned more by the Holy Spirit in the NT than Peter.”

This remains a fact still.

Chopping up the Word of God doesn’t help here as far as the point I made is concerned.

But let us continue with this scenario…

First Let us do a search on verses that contain all of Peter’s names. Those being: Peter, Simon, Cephas, and Kephas.

I get 200 verses: Now Lets break it down:

Matthew = 30 verses ( 1 of these denotes Simon the Cyrenian )
Mark = 27 ( 1 of these denotes Simon the Cyrenian )
Luke = 31 ( 1 of these denotes Simon the Cyrenian )
John = 38
Acts = 62 ( 5 of these refer to another Simon )
1st Corinthians = 4
Galations = 6
1st and 2nd Peter = 2 ( will exclude these two from the total count )

Total verses using Peter in some form or another = 190 from 7 different books.

Wait a second.

Did you count where Peter is called “Simon Peter” as a double mention?

What about where the gospels say “Simon, who is called Peter”?

Did your search count those references as two?

You did not remove them from the above breakdown. That would be greatly inappropriate here. That would be where Peter is mentioned, but is counted twice.

…continued in following post…

Part 2:

Now let us do a search on Paul and Saul:

I get 180 verses : Peter beats him out on this count by using the 190 count alone.

Acts = 151
Romans = 1 ( will exclude these from the total count )
1st Corithians = 7 ( will exclude these from the total count )
2nd Corithians = 2 ( will exclude these from the total count )
Galatians = 2 ( will exclude these from the total count )
Ephesians = 2 ( will exclude these from the total count )
Phillipians = 1 ( will exclude these from the total count )
Colossians = 3 ( will exclude these from the total count )
1 Thessalonians = 2 ( will exclude these from the total count )
2 Thessalonians = 2 ( will exclude these from the total count )
1 Timothy = 1 ( will exclude these from the total count )
2 Timothy = 1 ( will exclude these from the total count )
Titus = 1 ( will exclude these from the total count )
Philemon = 3 ( will exclude these from the total count )
2nd Peter = 1

So the numbers are

Peter = 190
Paul = 152

Did you account for where Paul is mentioned along with his name of Saul?

Also, I see you remove the Holy Spirit’s mention of Paul’s name from his epistles (the majority of the NT), but counted Peter’s name in those same epistles.

Hmmm.

We should also note that the Catholic poster who employed the “Peter is mentioned more than Paul” argument clearly stated that his sample went from “Matt. to Rev.”

Scripture is Scripture is Scripture, no matter where it is found between those covers.

Arbitrarily removing the Holy Spirit’s mention of His Apostle by name from one Scripture, but including those mentions as you desire, is not the best way to approach this issue…if we even bother to approach this issue at all.

Paul is mentioned 152 times by an outsider in only two books and 151 of those are in the book of Acts written by Luke who was his disciple, and Luke only lists Pauls name to clarify who is talking and likewise for Peter in the same book.

Discounting the Book of Acts since it is primarily about Peter and Paul then the numbers are:

Peter = 128
Paul = 1

Ahhhh.

Now we arbitrarily remove the Holy Spirit’s whole book of Acts now?

LOL.

OK.

Hack away.

I guess Luke had a bias?

No. The Author…God…wrote it all.

One part is no less God’s Word than another.

Please also note that you mention that it was a “good point” that:

“Peter, it is often argued, dictated much of his sermons to Mark, and Mark then wrote the Gospel of Mark. The Gospels of Matthew and of Luke at th every least parts of the Gospel of Mark. Therefore, one can say that Peter had a much larger hand in the writing of the NT.”

You didn’t see fit to remove the “Peter count” from the 3 synoptics because of Mark’s involvement, but you want to remove the “Paul count” from Acts because of Luke’s involvement?

This fuzzy math is fishy to say the least.

In any event, this still remains true in my estimation:

“‘Paul’ is mentioned more by the Holy Spirit in the NT than Peter.”

I didn’t feel the need to arbitrarily discount some books to make this assessment.

I think the whole exercise is silly myself, but novel…

That is a great observation.

I have a business and a family.

That leaves only a little time for Joey.

Response supplied now, however.

This is another myth that is all too common in the RC apologetic, but it is not true. It is this kind of claim that creates threads like this.

Peter is not always mentioned first in order.

Each verse is one record in the database.

So verses that have both names was not counted twice.

This is strictly a verse count not a name count.

Any other questions?

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