Numerical discrepancies in the Koran!


#1

Hi forum :slight_smile:

I have long been thinking of starting a thread to highlight the major contradictions in God’s supposedly final and preserved revelation to the human race. Since there are so many different sorts of contradictions in Mohammed’s scripture, I deem it necessary to categorize them into different groups. Here we go: the first set of contradictions in the Koran concerns numerical discrepancies.

If you know the Koran well, please feel free to post all the errors and inconsistencies you detect. :wink:

Peace & blessings,
Angelos N. (ex-Muslim)


#2

Numerical discrepancies in the **Qu’**ran? Surely thou jest.


#3

I think it is high time I gave the first example to clarify my point:

Question:
How many chapters are the unbelievers (non-Muslims!) supposed to forge in order to prove the human origin of Mohammed’s Scripture?

Answer 1:
One chapter:
002: 023 And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.

Answer 2:
One chapter (again):
010: 038 Or say they: He hath invented it ? Say: Then bring a surah like unto it, and call (for help) on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful.

Consistent numbers so far, nonetheless
Answer 3:
Ten chapters!!!
011: 013 Or they say: He hath invented it. Say: Then bring ten surahs, the like thereof, invented, and call on everyone ye can beside Allah, if ye are truthful!

Apparently, the verses in the Koran were perverted - before they were written down - in the minds of a number of believers that were unable to recite them correctly! Pay attention to the fact that the last two verses above are identical in everything except for the number of surahs! This proves the distortion of Mohammed’s message when it was even in the oral form! :smiley:

More, there is another answer to the same question. It is evident that the scribe of another chapter of Mohammed’s book was not aware of these contradictory figures (1 versus 10!), and he took the easy way of avoiding a definite number:
017: 088 Say: Verily, though mankind and the jinn should assemble to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof though they were helpers one of another.

Now I shall be waiting for other numerical discrepancies in Mohammed’s bible :rolleyes:

Peace & blessings,
ANgelos N. (ex-Muslim)


#4

Come now, Yunus and Hud are two Suras in the Qur’an that come together as a pair, being next to each other and sharing very similar themes, so obviously some verses are going to be similar. Compare 5:72 and 5:73 for example, or 9:32 and 9:33, those verses are right next to each other and have almost identical sentence structure at part of the verse except for a few switched words. Would you claim those to be mistakes? Clearly not since no one would be silly enough to make a simultaneous contradiction. Look at the verses around 10:38 and 11:13 and you’ll see they’re talking about different things.

But still, I would ask why must the figure given be exactly the same considering what the Qur’an’s saying here is just rhetoric. It’s not a serious challenge, since whether it’s to produce 10 Suras or just 1, none of the Meccan Pagans could ever do it, and they knew it.

And why has ‘a scribe’ written 17:88? You do understand that the Qur’an is an oral recitation and not a book? Muhammad (saaw) didn’t even have a scribe at the time that verse was revealed (immediately after the Mi’raj) anyway; which would also mean that this verse was revealed **before **the other three verses you’ve quoted (the correct order is 17:88, 10:38, 11:13 and finally 2:23), since Suras 10 and 11 were revealed just before the Hijra and Sura 2 was revealed two years after the Hijra. So obviously the “scribe” who wrote 17:88 hasn’t ‘took the easy way out by avoiding a definite number’ since this was revealed *before *the verses that gave those definite figures anyway.

Weak, very weak.


#5

Angelos,

Maybe you have a constructive purpose for this that I just cannot see right now. Barring that, please be careful not to stoop to this level with the Muslims… They may get a real kick out of this kind of mud-slinging, but in the end it only reflects upon themselves.


#6

Kadaveri, sorry to say: :smiley:
You Muslims know perfectly well that comparing chapter 10 with 11 will not help you solve the problem because despite the alleged similarity between those surahs, the numbers evidently show variation! If those two chapters (10 and 11) are pairs, I will expect them not to have contradictory figures. If your claim was true, both those surahs given in pairs would challenge the non-Muslims to bring ten forged chapters! Since one of them says “one” and the other “ten”, they are evidently not pairs. Your own assertions about the structural unity of these chapters deny the supposed preservation of the Koran :wink:

This is totally irrelevant to my question, please stop digression! I do not want to know if the Meccans could resist the challenge in the Koran, this being a different topic related to the so-called structure of Mohammed’s bible. Above all, you have to believe from the first that all Koran chapters came from Allah in order to deal with the challenge about forgery! I just wonder why the scribes of certain chapters changed the number in question? Is it a scribal error or a deliberate perversion? You fail to understand this simple question of mine
:frowning:
(The Koran uncannily asks the unbelievers to forge surahs! Why? Because even Mohammed knew that all chapters were invented by humans! He wanted non-Muslims to do the same so as to prove their allegations :rotfl: )

First, I have no reason to believe in the *Islamic dogma * that the Koran was not written by scribes! I am sure I can keep believing the opposite until you guys can prove this with hard evidence :rolleyes:

Second, it is probable that some of these surahs were confused with one another (I shall try to illustrate my theories very soon) and the originally correct order of the chapters were
forgotten due to the weak oral revelation of the verses. Islam cannot convince us that today’s Koran maintains its original form since the first Koran was written down after Mohammed and we do not have access to the Koran of Omar’s reign! (I believe he tampered with many doctrines and tenets)

Finally, you seem to find no other argument to debunk my claims than the indefinite order of the chapters. What if your teaching is true? I can just say that the scribes of the chapters coming after surah 17 deemed it necessary to give a definite number since they were not pleased with the challenge in that previous chapter. However, the scribes of the three chapters (10,11,2) fell into the trap of the numerical discrepancies the author of surah 17 made every effort to avoid. That crafty guy did not consent to present a definite number since he knew well that numbers would mirror the textual corruption more easily. Alas, the other authors did not follow him and embellished Mohammed’s scripture with a numerical discrepancy.

Your arguments are weaker if mine are weak :slight_smile:

God bless,
Angelos N (ex-Muslim)


#7

Montalban, Rodrigo Bivar, others…

Where are you? Why aren’t you supporting this thread? :confused:

Please share with me your findings. I shall wait until tomorrow, and then I shall post the second numerical discrepancy in Mohammed’s bible…

Peace & blessings,
ANgelos N.


#8

Next question:

How much does it take a mother to wean her baby according to the Koran?

Answer 1: 21 months (one of the chapters in the Koran gives us the total number of the term of pregnancy and baby’s weaning in months! 9 months+ 21 months: 30 months)

046: 15 And We have commended unto man kindness toward parents. His mother beareth him with reluctance, and bringeth him forth with reluctance, and the bearing of him and the weaning of him is thirty months, till, when he attaineth full strength and reacheth forty years, he saith: My Lord! Arouse me that I may give thanks for the favour wherewith Thou hast favoured me and my parents, and that I may do right acceptable unto Thee.

Answer 2: 2 years! (24 months! This is against the number given in the above verse since 24 months + 9: 33 months! )

031: 14 And We have enjoined upon man concerning his partners - His mother beareth him in weakness upon weakness, and his weaning is in **two years **- Give thanks unto Me and unto thy parents. Unto Me is the journeying.

Evidently, these two chapters could not have been written by the same scribe! Too many hands were at work when Allah’s supposedly final revelation was being devised. More strikingly, the similarities in the sentence structure of these two contradictory verses as well as their almost identical place in the chapters (verse 14 & 15!!!) indicate more than a simple copying error. The discrepancy actually stems from the use of a different numerical system in the calculation of the length of the time passing until the weaning: months vs year :smiley:


#9

Hi Angelos,
I’ve been rather busy lately and have not had the time to come here as often as before. Also, I find that my presence seems to attract a certain embittered Muslim who spoils threads by engaging in personal attacks rather than discussing the issue. I would prefer to not subject the good Christian members with his nonsense.

You have indeed made a good find. The discrepancies between surahs 10 and 11 surely point to a non-divine origin of the Quran. Similarly the discrepancies between the weaning verses also point to a non-divine origin of the Quran.

In fact, both these discrepancies show Allah to be a figment of Muhammad’s imagination.

However, I anticipate Muslims making all sorts of excuses for Allah’s fickleness - such as figurative speech. Somethings cannot be figurative or metaphorical since they are highly exact. Otherwise, why would Allah make a challenge of producing 1 surah in one verse and 10 surahs in another.

The order of revelation is actually surahs 10, 11, 17, 2, but only surah 2 was revealed in Medinah (although some people say some verses of surah 10 were Medinan).

However, only 2:23 was intended for Muslims. The other three were intended for the Meccan pagans. Hence, 2:23 was rather preaching to the converted - the brainwashed Muslims would never even think it possible to produce a surah like the Quran.

So if we take the verses intended for pagans, i.e. 10:38, 11:13 and 17:88, one can see a progression from 1 surah to 10 surah to the entire Quran.

This suggests (it is only a suggestion) that indeed some pagans were able to produce surahs like what Muhammad produced - so he had to escalate the number.

But then when he was in Medinah the number went back to 1 surah since he knew his challenged would not be met by the brainwashed Muslims.

Before any Muslim jumps up - this is indeed a speculation but I feel it is a plausible explanation of why Allah was unable to remain consistent with his challenge to the pagans. There really was no need to escalate the number unless some smarty-pants pagan had met the challenge. In other words, Muhammad had no need to re-define his challenge to 10 surahs and then the whole Quran unless his initial challenge had been met.

Chau,
Rodrigo


#10

Hi Angelos, I am a Muslim.
Is these just some comments? Do you have any intention to know the Islamic part of it? tell me.

Thank you.


#11

Does that Question make any sense? Since Quran was alleged with the same claim of human work even at the time of prophet, God wanted Mohamed to ask those allegers to prove that it is human work. Once God asked to prove with book like that. Once, to prove with at least 10 Surahs. Twice, to prove with even just one surah. That challenge still remains and you found a mistake in the question? It is very easy man. If Mohamed could make a book like it, anyone could make. We are waiting for last 1500 years, if some accomplish the challenge.


#12

I challenge Muslims to create even one verse that rivals the words of Jesus in the gospels. If they do I will convert. Of course I will judge if it meets the standard. So take my challenge Muslims.


#13

This mudslinging and one-upmanship is misguided.


#14

Hi Rodrigo :slight_smile:

Welcome back! It is great to see u posting here. Thanks for your response :thumbsup:

(I shall be beringing up a few other numerical discrepancies in Mohammed’s scripture before I start a thread devoted to the analysis of different versions of a story :wink: )

Peace & God bless,
Angelos N.


#15

Hi Khalfan, I am an ex-Muslim.
I believe to know the Koran very well. What I am trying to do at the moment is just make my Christian friends aware of the discrepancies and signs of textual corruption in Islamic Scripture.

Peace,
ANgelos N.


#16

Muslims never made such a claim that whatever Jesus said, can say by anyone. We Muslims believe in words of Jesus (AS). We believe that he got revelations from GOD which we call INJEEL. Probably it is there somewhere in the Bible, but recogning his words from human entries, is an impossible task. Bible itself says the scriptures are correpted by humans. Bible itself says it contains third party narration. Bible itself says disputes about the authors of 66 (or 73?!!) books. No one knows how to recognise inspired and uninspierd words. Now tell me, do you want a verse that rivals the words of Jesus? I can show you human added words of Jesus (AS) IN THE LIVING BIBLE which you believed as of Jesus for a last 1700 (I don’t know when it entered in the Bible) years. Go to www.biblegateway.com and search for Mark 16:9-20. It says ‘The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20’. Who created it then? Your challenge is accomplished long back. Any other challenge?


#17

May be I can help you in clearing those discrepancies. May be you didn’t understand Islam well. Be honest to its teachings, whatever you are now a Christian or Jew or anything else. Learn details of the points wherever you feel dispute. Be honest to yourself at least when you ask a question. Be honest to accept the answer when you are wrong. You may have a reason. Others too have reason. Fair dialogues will help to understand the truth.


#18

It makes as much sense as your response to it. Sorry, you seem not to have read Kadaveri’s response to my argument - he is a Muslim guy too -, and your answers naturally illustrate disagreement.

You also forget that there are two surahs challenging non-Muslims to forge one chapter whereas only one surah challenging to forge ten chapters. More to the point, the order of the alleged revelation of those chapters clearly indicate that Allah first added to the number of the chapters to be forged, but then mysteriously got back to the previous number. (this is how it goes in the Koran: challenge to forge one surah, subsequently ten surahs, finally one surah again! :confused: )

If no one could have written one single surah similar to Allah’s book, why the challenge to produce ten of them??? Evidently, there is a problem with the logic in these verses. If I challenge someone to produce ten chapters, this entails that they have tried and managed to produce at least one chapter! :wink:

Peace to you,
Angelos N.


#19

Interestingly, the Koran makes it clear that Allah’s signs to Mohammed were perverted even before Koran was written down:

041: 40 Those who pervert the Truth in Our Signs are not hidden from Us. Which is better? he that is cast into the Fire, or he that comes safe through, on the Day of Judgment? Do what ye will: verily He seeth (clearly) all that ye do.

More, the Koran implies that early Muslims tended to replace Allah’s truth with human lies:

016: 094-95 And take not your oaths, to practise deception between yourselves, with the result that someone’s foot may slip after it was firmly planted; and ye may have to taste the evil (consequences) of having hindered (men) from the Path of Allah, and a mighty Wrath descend on you.Nor sell the Covenant of Allah for a miserable price: for with Allah is (a prize) far better for you, if ye only knew.

Could you please show me verses in the Koran where Allah speaks to Issa directly? Uncannily, all these verses of the supposed revelation prove that Allah’s supposed revelation to Issa was recorded by a third party unknown to us. Besides, I fail to distinguish Allah’s words from human remarks in your scripture when Issa’s story is in question. Consider the following example:

004: 157-158 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But **Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise. **

Who is the speaker here??? It is apparent that human interpretation of Jesus’ crucifixion was somehow mingled with supposedly divine revelation! The last sentence was most probably added to the Koran by a scribe! I can give you tens of these examples, which demonstrate that it is impoosible to say Allah’s words from human interpretation in the Koran :wink:

Peace,
Angelos N.


#20

Maybe a Christian apologist or a simple Christian studying his/her Bible well can help you in clearing all those discrepancies. Maybe you do not understand Christianity well. Be honest to its teachings, whatever you are now a Muslim or Jew or anything else. Learn details of the points wherever you feel dispute. Be honest to yourself at least when you ask a question. Be honest to accept the answer when you are wrong. You may have a reason. Others too have reason. Fair dialogues will help to understand the truth.


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