Oh Boy-what does this mean?


#1

So tonight my husband tells me that he doesn't believe now, or at the time of our Convalidation, that the Convalidation we had meant anything other than "making me happy".
What, if anything, does this mean about our 'marriage'.
I guess I'm highly concerned that I'm living in a non Sacramental marriage.
Besides, that, does this mean I'm in sin??


#2

[quote="Rachel, post:1, topic:219496"]
So tonight my husband tells me that he doesn't believe now, or at the time of our Convalidation, that the Convalidation we had meant anything other than "making me happy".
What, if anything, does this mean about our 'marriage'.
I guess I'm highly concerned that I'm living in a non Sacramental marriage.
Besides, that, does this mean I'm in sin??

[/quote]

Your Convalidation is valid, and so is your marriage - it is permanent.

Please do not worry - and if discussing it with your husband makes you feel anxious, then simply do not bring the subject up with him - there are plenty of other subjects for conversation. :)


#3

[quote="jmcrae, post:2, topic:219496"]
Your Convalidation is valid, and so is your marriage - it is permanent.

Please do not worry - and if discussing it with your husband makes you feel anxious, then simply do not bring the subject up with him - there are plenty of other subjects for conversation. :)

[/quote]

But what about Canon Law?
Canon 1157 The renewal of consent must be a new act of will consenting to a marriage which the renewing party knows or thinks was invalid from the beginning.


#4

Even if his motivation was to make you happy, he knew fully what he was doing and gave his full consent. I think you're good :)


#5

[quote="LittleMother, post:4, topic:219496"]
Even if his motivation was to make you happy, he knew fully what he was doing and gave his full consent. I think you're good :)

[/quote]

He doesn't believe that the Convalidation meant anything at all. He believes we were married prior to the Convalidation -
Canon 1157 The renewal of consent must be a new act of will consenting to a marriage which the renewing party knows or thinks was invalid from the beginning.


#6

[quote="Rachel, post:5, topic:219496"]
He doesn't believe that the Convalidation meant anything at all. He believes we were married prior to the Convalidation -
Canon 1157 The renewal of consent must be a new act of will consenting to a marriage which the renewing party knows or thinks was invalid from the beginning.

[/quote]

If the only reason he thinks what he thinks is that he thinks your marriage was already valid, and he just had to give consent again to satisfy you that this was indeed so, you are OK.

Canon 1157 means that you don't do a convalidation when neither party thinks or knows that the original vows were invalid. You (singular) think your consent was invalid, you are both willing to renew consent, you both did so, you are now without a doubt in anyone's mind now in a valid marriage. If neither of you thinks a convalidation necessary, OTOH, the Church isn't going to do it for you.

Now, if your husband had been going through the motions but withholding true consent, that would be another matter. As it is, he is only saying that in his mind he gave full consent the first time. You didn't have to undo his belief in his original consent, you only had to convince him to give it again.


#7

Is your fear that he is trying to leave you? Is that what you are trying to say Rachel? It could just be that he literally is struggling with his own faith and is throwing your marriage into that argument - where it doesn't belong.


#8

[quote="joandarc2008, post:7, topic:219496"]
Is your fear that he is trying to leave you? Is that what you are trying to say Rachel? It could just be that he literally is struggling with his own faith and is throwing your marriage into that argument - where it doesn't belong.

[/quote]

Yea he threatened to leave me the other day. He's not Catholic btw, he's pagan (he was baptized baptist as a kid but denies being Christian).
He's angry that I'm Catholic and don't go out and "party" anymore with him.
There's way more to this though, like how he's cheated on me etc and how I nearly didn't Convalidate the marriage but went ahead and did it (against advice from nearly everyone). I figure this is my cross to bear. Stuff he does verges on emotional abuse and if I were not as strong as I am, I'd say it probably is emotional abuse, but I don't let his constant negativity and blaming me for everything affect me as he'd like it to.
When we Convalidated the marriage in March I had sent him all this stuff in his email so he would know exactly what he was doing by Convalidating the marriage.. well, apparently he didn't read it and lied to me about reading it. Through these last few months and the way he's acting I started suspecting that we don't have a Sacramental marriage but it wasn't until today when he said what he said that it seems my feelings were spot on.
Now, that being said, I DO NOT want to sin. I do not want to divorce him unless it's God's will.. I just have no idea what God's will is in regards to my 'marriage'. I know one thing though, if the marriage ends, I'm going to be a nun. (seriously, I've felt a call to be religious for over a year now, so much so that I've started formation in a 3rd order).


#9

[quote="Rachel, post:8, topic:219496"]
Yea he threatened to leave me the other day. He's not Catholic btw, he's pagan (he was baptized baptist as a kid but denies being Christian).
He's angry that I'm Catholic and don't go out and "party" anymore with him.
There's way more to this though, like how he's cheated on me etc and how I nearly didn't Convalidate the marriage but went ahead and did it (against advice from nearly everyone). I figure this is my cross to bear. Stuff he does verges on emotional abuse and if I were not as strong as I am, I'd say it probably is emotional abuse, but I don't let his constant negativity and blaming me for everything affect me as he'd like it to.
When we Convalidated the marriage in March I had sent him all this stuff in his email so he would know exactly what he was doing by Convalidating the marriage.. well, apparently he didn't read it and lied to me about reading it. Through these last few months and the way he's acting I started suspecting that we don't have a Sacramental marriage but it wasn't until today when he said what he said that it seems my feelings were spot on.
Now, that being said, I DO NOT want to sin. I do not want to divorce him unless it's God's will.. I just have no idea what God's will is in regards to my 'marriage'. I know one thing though, if the marriage ends, I'm going to be a nun. (seriously, I've felt a call to be religious for over a year now, so much so that I've started formation in a 3rd order).

[/quote]

1) Deep breath - you can't be a nun without an anullment.
2) You are in formation for a 3rd order - you should stay there - I am in the same boat and when I sat down and talked to one of the Brothers at the Parish I really came to understanding that it was best for me to focus on that - it has helped me get this far.
3) My husband was supposedly a Catholic who was practicing as a Pagan - so let me explain this to you. Some people are innately good. Sometimes they mess up and they do bad things and they ask forgiveness and they are forgiven. Some people are innately bad, sometimes they mess up and they do good things. These two types of people cannot live together - they are diabolically opposed. If he is practicing paganism - you know where he is.
4) I am sorry to put it bluntly - but lay it down and give him his choice.

God bless.


#10

[quote="joandarc2008, post:9, topic:219496"]
1) Deep breath - you can't be a nun without an anullment.

[/quote]

Yep, I'm aware. If he leaves me though, I'm going to file for an annulment and considering I have what he said in writing and considering he'll probably tell the Tribunal that himself, I'm pretty sure it'll be granted. That being said, I would not rush into it, I would take the appropriate time to heal (besides, everyone knows how long the Tribunal takes)

[quote="joandarc2008, post:9, topic:219496"]
2) You are in formation for a 3rd order - you should stay there - I am in the same boat and when I sat down and talked to one of the Brothers at the Parish I really came to understanding that it was best for me to focus on that - it has helped me get this far.

[/quote]

Well, I'll have time to discern that. My main goal is to do what God wants me to do, no matter what that is.

[quote="joandarc2008, post:9, topic:219496"]
3) My husband was supposedly a Catholic who was practicing as a Pagan - so let me explain this to you. Some people are innately good. Sometimes they mess up and they do bad things and they ask forgiveness and they are forgiven. Some people are innately bad, sometimes they mess up and they do good things. These two types of people cannot live together - they are diabolically opposed. If he is practicing paganism - you know where he is.

[/quote]

I have seen God working on him. He went with me to Mass a few times and prayed with me once. I had actually hoped that he would repent. I still hope that, no matter what happens with our 'marriage'. I think though, in all honesty, that my emotional attachments to him were gone before I even went through with the Convalidation. It's been years of pain with him before the Convalidation and I guess I figured that God just wanted me to have this as a cross to bear. It's just getting so hard to bear it anymore. Seriously, it's like I can go along fine with loving my neighbor, praying etc, but when he walks in the room I tense up and automatically get defensive and irritated. I don't mean to be this way, years of negativity and him being constantly mad I think have taken their toll.

[quote="joandarc2008, post:9, topic:219496"]
4) I am sorry to put it bluntly - but lay it down and give him his choice.

God bless.

[/quote]

See, this is my issue. I know according to the 'world' I should have left him long ago, and I shouldn't have Convalidated the marriage. But I need to do what I'm supposed to do in God's will. If I leave him, or give him a 'choice' wouldn't that be sinning? Then again, if I'm in a non Sacramental 'marriage' isn't it the same as before the Convalidation and therefore I would be living in sin now? I kind of feel like I'm sinning either way, and I feel like I'm sinning by even thinking about leaving him, or being free or this pain. (no I'm not Scruplous or however you spell it, I just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing and doing what God would want me to).


#11

[quote="Rachel, post:8, topic:219496"]
Yea he threatened to leave me the other day. He's not Catholic btw, he's pagan (he was baptized baptist as a kid but denies being Christian).
He's angry that I'm Catholic and don't go out and "party" anymore with him.
There's way more to this though, like how he's cheated on me etc and how I nearly didn't Convalidate the marriage but went ahead and did it (against advice from nearly everyone). I figure this is my cross to bear. Stuff he does verges on emotional abuse and if I were not as strong as I am, I'd say it probably is emotional abuse, but I don't let his constant negativity and blaming me for everything affect me as he'd like it to.
When we Convalidated the marriage in March I had sent him all this stuff in his email so he would know exactly what he was doing by Convalidating the marriage.. well, apparently he didn't read it and lied to me about reading it. Through these last few months and the way he's acting I started suspecting that we don't have a Sacramental marriage but it wasn't until today when he said what he said that it seems my feelings were spot on.
Now, that being said, I DO NOT want to sin. I do not want to divorce him unless it's God's will.. I just have no idea what God's will is in regards to my 'marriage'. I know one thing though, if the marriage ends, I'm going to be a nun. (seriously, I've felt a call to be religious for over a year now, so much so that I've started formation in a 3rd order).

[/quote]

First off, emotional abuse does not become less serious because you choose to prey on a strong person instead of a weaker one.

Secondly, I think that there is a real limit to how much of the benefits of a sacramental marriage are realized when one party has no faith and does not support the faith of the other party who does. Though both are technically baptized, the grace of a sacramental marriage is not enjoyed by a couple with a partner who is hostile to the faith any more than the grace of baptism flows freely even though the baptized party decides to take up the practice of paganism, instead. There is a reason the Church insists that parents understand that they are charged with doing more than getting their child baptized. Likewise, there is a reason there needs to be due diligence in fully explaining Catholic marriage to all who enter into it, but especially non-Catholics.

Oh, boy, on the question of whether you are even technically have a sacramental marriage: that depends on whether you "technically" have a valid marriage. You sent him the materials over the internet, he claims not to have read them. Are you saying that the priest or deacon who performed the convalidation never explained this to him and never confirmed that your husband gave consent with knowledge, or are you saying that your husband is claiming to have lied to both you and the priest or deacon? What did he write, when you filled out the paperwork getting permission to marry a non-Catholic Christian? Did anyone tell the priest or deacon that your husband publicly represented himself as a pagan? This is likely not to be the kind of thing he's going to have asked out of the blue, not if you produced a baptismal certificate from the Baptist church for him. By saying he went through with it "to make you happy", is your husband claiming that you coerced him in some way, that he said the words in order to stop you from nagging him?

It is very important to be completely honest when preparing for a marriage or convalidation. Please talk to your pastor about this, not us.


#12

[quote="Rachel, post:8, topic:219496"]
He's not Catholic btw, he's pagan

[/quote]

Just a bit of advice. Most pagans don't enjoy being called pagans. ;)
On a serious note: I'll pray for your marriage Rachel. Have faith. Ask your guardian angel to pray for your marriage.


#13

Rachel, go talk to your priest about your concerns.


#14

[quote="EasterJoy, post:11, topic:219496"]
First off, emotional abuse does not become less serious because you choose to prey on a strong person instead of a weaker one.

Secondly, I think that there is a real limit to how much of the benefits of a sacramental marriage are realized when one party has no faith and does not support the faith of the other party who does. Though both are technically baptized, the grace of a sacramental marriage is not enjoyed by a couple with a partner who is hostile to the faith any more than the grace of baptism flows freely even though the baptized party decides to take up the practice of paganism, instead. There is a reason the Church insists that parents understand that they are charged with doing more than getting their child baptized. Likewise, there is a reason there needs to be due diligence in fully explaining Catholic marriage to all who enter into it, but especially non-Catholics.

Oh, boy, on the question of whether you are even technically have a sacramental marriage: that depends on whether you "technically" have a valid marriage. You sent him the materials over the internet, he claims not to have read them. Are you saying that the priest or deacon who performed the convalidation never explained this to him and never confirmed that your husband gave consent with knowledge, or are you saying that your husband is claiming to have lied to both you and the priest or deacon? What did he write, when you filled out the paperwork getting permission to marry a non-Catholic Christian? Did anyone tell the priest or deacon that your husband publicly represented himself as a pagan? This is likely not to be the kind of thing he's going to have asked out of the blue, not if you produced a baptismal certificate from the Baptist church for him. By saying he went through with it "to make you happy", is your husband claiming that you coerced him in some way, that he said the words in order to stop you from nagging him?

It is very important to be completely honest when preparing for a marriage or convalidation. Please talk to your pastor about this, not us.

[/quote]

I told the priest he was an active pagan so he was aware. When we filled out the paperwork for the Convalidation my husband didn't write anything down, the priest did. Where it said "Grooms Religion" or however it was worded, the priest wrote "Still Searching".
We never had pre marriage meetings or anything other than the one we had when we filled out the papers, pretty much my husband talked about gaming to the priest and that was about it. I had to sign something stating if we had any children I would raise the Catholic (which I would, but we have no kids, and honestly, I would be afraid if we did b/c of his constant negativity).
The 'to make me happy' statement I guess does mean that, I never thought of it that way though, that he thinks I coerced him in some way. Basically it was up to me to try and explain to him what the Convalidation meant, and I tried with the best of my ability to explain it via emails I sent him (I sent emails so he could refer back to them if he ever had a question).
I'm embarassed to talk to my priest about this honestly. I mean, I'm either going to have to take this as my cross to bear or sin.


#15

[quote="FirstCalled, post:12, topic:219496"]
Just a bit of advice. Most pagans don't enjoy being called pagans. ;)
On a serious note: I'll pray for your marriage Rachel. Have faith. Ask your guardian angel to pray for your marriage.

[/quote]

Well, my husband never minded being called a pagan, or a witch for that matter (although I think he liked witch better).
Thank you for the prayers.


#16

[quote="Rachel, post:15, topic:219496"]
Well, my husband never minded being called a pagan, or a witch for that matter (although I think he liked witch better).
Thank you for the prayers.

[/quote]

My husband had said he had left Necromancy when we were married - it was all a lie. The next year and a half became Hell. I am telling you - you cannot stay in this marriage unless he is willing to leave his practices and repent. Do you not understand that your move to a Secular Order is to a consecrated life in Christ while his is to a consecrated life in evil? Did you know this before the convalidation? Did your priest know it?


#17

[quote="1ke, post:13, topic:219496"]
Rachel, go talk to your priest about your concerns.

[/quote]

You are one of those that warned me about Convalidating the marriage..

[quote="1ke, post:36, topic:188159"]
Actively practicing witchcraft? That changes my answer!!!!!

Are you sure you want that in your house, your life? What about future children? Witchcraft is very serious. I would not remain in a relationship or a house with someone actively courting the occult.

[/quote]

go ahead and say it "I told you so" ... ;)
"


#18

[quote="Rachel, post:17, topic:219496"]
You are one of those that warned me about Convalidating the marriage..
go ahead and say it "I told you so" ... ;)
"

[/quote]

Rachel - don't worry about being wrong or embarassed- worry about being safe and at peace.


#19

[quote="joandarc2008, post:16, topic:219496"]
My husband had said he had left Necromancy when we were married - it was all a lie. The next year and a half became Hell. I am telling you - you cannot stay in this marriage unless he is willing to leave his practices and repent. Do you not understand that your move to a Secular Order is to a consecrated life in Christ while his is to a consecrated life in evil? Did you know this before the convalidation? Did your priest know it?

[/quote]

Yes the priest and I knew it. He hasn't been doing any rituals that I'm aware of though since I started RCIA. He did however bring a pagan statue into the house and I pretty much flipped out on him over it and the proceeded to post here and get 'told' not to worry about it.
Pretty much he lives in WoW now, he's completely obsessed with the spells and enchantments of that stupid game.
And yes, I do understand that I'm consecrated to Jesus and Mary.. very much so. I think that's part of his problem, he thinks I'm "too involved in Church"


#20

[quote="Rachel, post:19, topic:219496"]
Yes the priest and I knew it. He hasn't been doing any rituals that I'm aware of though since I started RCIA. He did however bring a pagan statue into the house and I pretty much flipped out on him over it and the proceeded to post here and get 'told' not to worry about it.
Pretty much he lives in WoW now, he's completely obsessed with the spells and enchantments of that stupid game.
And yes, I do understand that I'm consecrated to Jesus and Mary.. very much so. I think that's part of his problem, he thinks I'm "too involved in Church"

[/quote]

As a correction - you are not consecrated yet - You become a consecrated soul when you make profession. You will also need his permission to make that profession.

That being said he very much by doing these spells and rituals and not taking Confession he has consecrated himself elsewhere. This is really something that you need to talk to your priest about immediately.

Did he sign a disparity of cult dispensation and receive this from the Bishop before convalidation?


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.