Okay Muslims, I would like a straight answer!


#1

Simple request: I would ask that all other non-Muslims to please NOT reply to this thread as I think it would only make it easier for the post to get de-railed, even if that is not your intention… this is just how I would like it. Thank you for understanding.

I’m going to make this as simple as possible. Muslims, please give me any objective reason why you think that Mohammed was some sort of prophet and that the Quran is from God. Note, key word “objective”. You have to have some kind of empirical evidence, measured by a consistent standard, and not just based upon “feelings”.

Every time I have tried to ask this about either Mohammed or the Quran in the past, it inevitably resorts to any of several logical fallacies or attempts to change the subject. These will immediately be pointed out and discarded as irrelevant to the topic. Otherwise, I’m willing to discuss anything fairly, one response at a time, and I agree not to resort to ad hominems if everyone else will extend me the same courtesy.

That’s about it! Like I said, for Catholics or any other non-Muslims I’d appreciate it if you don’t reply directly to this thread so that it can more easily stay on-topic, but if you want to start some kind of a parallel side-thread or whatever that’s completely fine with me. Thanks for your cooperation! :slight_smile:


#2

[quote=exoflare]Simple request: I would ask that all other non-Muslims to please NOT reply to this thread as I think it would only make it easier for the post to get de-railed, even if that is not your intention… this is just how I would like it. Thank you for understanding.

I’m going to make this as simple as possible. Muslims, please give me any objective reason why you think that Mohammed was some sort of prophet and that the Quran is from God. Note, key word “objective”. You have to have some kind of empirical evidence, measured by a consistent standard, and not just based upon “feelings”.

Every time I have tried to ask this about either Mohammed or the Quran in the past, it inevitably resorts to any of several logical fallacies or attempts to change the subject. These will immediately be pointed out and discarded as irrelevant to the topic. Otherwise, I’m willing to discuss anything fairly, one response at a time, and I agree not to resort to ad hominems if everyone else will extend me the same courtesy.

That’s about it! Like I said, for Catholics or any other non-Muslims I’d appreciate it if you don’t reply directly to this thread so that it can more easily stay on-topic, but if you want to start some kind of a parallel side-thread or whatever that’s completely fine with me. Thanks for your cooperation! :slight_smile:
[/quote]

okay letme try to be the first to answer…
-Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the last Prophet for ALL of mankind and last Prophet in general… and he said there will be false prophets after him…which has come true…
-The Qu’ran mentions about Noah (pbuh) and his ark…and instead of saying the whole world was flooded…it says only the part of the land he was from was flooded… makes a LOT more sense.
-Prophet Muhamamd (pbuh) was illiterate (a fact) and ther is no way someone can come up with anything even remotely close to the Qu’ran.
-the Qu’ran confirms the virgin birth of Isa(pbuh) and his miracles. as well miracles of other Prophets
-I have not found any discrepancy or any contradiction in the Qu’ran… any book that is revealed over a period of 23 years will have SOME discrepancy or change of tone, etc.
-The Qu’ran has not been changed , not even one letter
-It is said it will be easy to memorize the Qu’ran…millions ofpeople have done it…evennon Arabic speakers
-Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) conquest of Mecca and other towns even at times when he was wayyy undermanned.
-Islam surviving thousand+ years, virtually unchanged
-Prophet Muhammad is a descendent of Abraham (pbuh) just like other major Prophets

there are other reasons as well. i understand some of these might look subjective and some you can debate and find articles in antiIslamic sites.


#3

The existence of “anti-islamic sites” won’t make any difference here. It really won’t be an issue, so don’t worry about it.

Otherwise, I’ll respond point by point.

-Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the last Prophet for ALL of mankind and last Prophet in general…

Here you are simply restating the claim I was asking about, rather than providing any proof OF the claim. This doesn’t shed any further light on the subject.

and he said there will be false prophets after him…which has come true…

Fair enough. But just to make sure we’re using a consistent standard in this case, would this be equally impressive if I were the one to predict that in the future some time from now there will be false prophets? If not, what makes the instance with Mohammed making this prediction any different?


#4

[quote=exoflare]The existence of “anti-islamic sites” won’t make any difference here. It really won’t be an issue, so don’t worry about it.

Otherwise, I’ll respond point by point.

-Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the last Prophet for ALL of mankind and last Prophet in general…

Here you are simply restating the claim I was asking about, rather than providing any proof OF the claim. This doesn’t shed any further light on the subject.

and he said there will be false prophets after him…which has come true…

Fair enough. But just to make sure we’re using a consistent standard in this case, would this be equally impressive if I were the one to predict that in the future some time from now there will be false prophets? If not, what makes the instance with Mohammed making this prediction any different?
[/quote]

but has there been any Prophets since Muhammad (pbuh)?


#5

[quote=Muslim]but has there been any Prophets since Muhammad (pbuh)?
[/quote]

Please answer my two questions first.


#6

well when talking about impressive…which is an opinion…you need a subjective answer…you agree?


#7

[quote=Muslim]well when talking about impressive…which is an opinion…you need a subjective answer…you agree?
[/quote]

Not necessarily. You just have to specify why you consider something “impressive”. How does it defy the odds in any way?


#8

BTW, I’m not ignoring the other points you made, just so you know. I will get to them later on. I just think it’s easier to keep it one or two points per post.


#9

[quote=exoflare]Not necessarily. You just have to specify why you consider something “impressive”. How does it defy the odds in any way?
[/quote]

i am sorry but i just have to use this… i know its been used before but…
if you can get 1.5 billion+ people to listen to your message and follow you and be devout…1500 years after you have died…i consider that impressive…dont you think so?


#10

[quote=Muslim]i am sorry but i just have to use this… i know its been used before but…
if you can get 1.5 billion+ people to listen to your message and follow you and be devout…1500 years after you have died…i consider that impressive…dont you think so?
[/quote]

I will make ONE quick reply to this for now. After that we’re getting back to the previous point.

I think it could definitely be called “unique” in history and even potentially “impressive”, depending on your standard. So yes, for the record, I will say that. But now back to the topic we were currently on. We’ve reached the end of this rabbit trail for now if you don’t mind.

Specifically, what makes Mohammed’s prediction that there would be false prophets in the future any different from my predicting it right now and having it come true?


#11

[quote=exoflare]I will make ONE quick reply to this for now. After that we’re getting back to the previous point.

I think it could definitely be called “unique” in history and even potentially “impressive”, depending on your standard. So yes, for the record, I will say that. But now back to the topic we were currently on. We’ve reached the end of this rabbit trail for now if you don’t mind.

Specifically, what makes Mohammed’s prediction that there would be false prophets in the future any different from my predicting it right now and having it come true?
[/quote]

no it would not make any difference…however you are not a Prophet… so its sort of like comparing apples with oranges…and i know you dont belive Muhammad (pbuh) was a prophet either. since many people do consdier him a Prophet, it makes some difference than you claiming to be a Prophet… and so far it has come true… i have not seenany Prophets since Muhammad (pbuh)…yes i know about Joseph Smith Jr…but no one except the LDS considers him a Prophet… Even non Muslims (a lot of them anyways) respectfully calls Muhammad (pbuh) by “Prophet Muhammad”.
i mean honestly that is the best answer I cna give you because we can just go around in a circle if this answer is not good enough for you…


#12

[quote=Muslim]no it would not make any difference…however you are not a Prophet… so its sort of like comparing apples with oranges…and i know you dont belive Muhammad (pbuh) was a prophet either. since many people do consdier him a Prophet, it makes some difference than you claiming to be a Prophet… and so far it has come true… i have not seenany Prophets since Muhammad (pbuh)…yes i know about Joseph Smith Jr…but no one except the LDS considers him a Prophet… Even non Muslims (a lot of them anyways) respectfully calls Muhammad (pbuh) by “Prophet Muhammad”.
i mean honestly that is the best answer I cna give you because we can just go around in a circle if this answer is not good enough for you…
[/quote]

Cool. I appreciate your honesty. In that case, I’ll go on to the next point…


#13

[quote=exoflare]Cool. I appreciate your honesty. In that case, I’ll go on to the next point…
[/quote]

yeah no problem… although i might go to sleep soon…so if i dont answer dont think i am a little sissy Muslim and ran away to go jihad on infidels…


#14

Dear exoflare:

The following are titles of short articles. They may help you in understanding the issue at hand, regarding the Prophethood of Muhammad (PBUH). (Please click the link at the bottom to read all)

[INDENT]III. THE PROPHETHOOD

Prophethood:

[INDENT]Its Nature and Necessity

Brief History of Prophethood

The Prophethood of Muhammad

Muhammad’s Prophethood A Rational Vindication

ARABIA - the Abyss of Darkness
The Saviour is Born
Diamond in a Heap of Stones
A Revolution Comes
Why all that Enmity?
A Changed Man at Forty-Why?
His All-embracing Message
His Contribution to Human Thought
The Greatest Revolutionary
The Final Testimony

**The Finality of Prophethood ** [/INDENT]

Details:
Towards Understanding Islam
by Sayyid Abul A’la Maududi
witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/M_tui/[/INDENT]


#15

-The Qu’ran mentions about Noah (pbuh) and his ark…and instead of saying the whole world was flooded…it says only the part of the land he was from was flooded… makes a LOT more sense.

To be honest with you, I don’t know how much has been explicitly defined as Church dogma regarding the Flood story in the book of Genesis… One point that I find a lot of Muslims are not aware of is that the books of the Bible aren’t necessarily historical in nature. In fact, most of them are not meant to be completely historical in nature at all. It’s just not the purpose they were written for. Some of them may have been fully or partially allegorical. What doesn’t change is the sense of morals that each one gives.

Addressing this more directly, I am not aware that the Church has any definite beliefs about whether or not there was a literal great flood on either the whole earth or just a large portion of it. Personally, I always thought it was more likely that there was a huge flood in that general region of where civilization existed at that time. So in that regard, we really have no necessary conflict in belief.

There is another important point I have to bring up regarding this… If I remember correctly, there were at least two words for “world” in the Hebrew language. One supposedly referred to the earth as a whole, and the other meant something like just all of the land known by mankind. I may try doing some research on it a little later on, or if someone else reading this thread knows you could PM me and I’d make any appropriate corrections.


#16

[quote=Muslim]yeah no problem… although i might go to sleep soon…so if i dont answer dont think i am a little sissy Muslim and ran away to go jihad on infidels…
[/quote]

I’m actually about to go to bed too, in a little bit. Thanks for your replies.


#17

That’s fine, but if you want a reply to any specific point made in that link, please post it yourself. And only one or two points at a time please.


#18

[quote=exoflare]I’m actually about to go to bed too, in a little bit. Thanks for your replies.
[/quote]

yeah. i got work in the morning… i have to finish the deal with my CHRISTIAN clients…who i am doing a favor and not ripping them off unlike other companies.
thanks for your honest interest.


#19

[quote=exoflare]***-The Qu’ran mentions about Noah (pbuh) and his ark…and instead of saying the whole world was flooded…it says only the part of the land he was from was flooded… makes a LOT more sense.***

To be honest with you, I don’t know how much has been explicitly defined as Church dogma regarding the Flood story in the book of Genesis… One point that I find a lot of Muslims are not aware of is that the books of the Bible aren’t necessarily historical in nature. In fact, most of them are not meant to be completely historical in nature at all. It’s just not the purpose they were written for. Some of them may have been fully or partially allegorical. What doesn’t change is the sense of morals that each one gives.

Addressing this more directly, I am not aware that the Church has any definite beliefs about whether or not there was a literal great flood on either the whole earth or just a large portion of it. Personally, I always thought it was more likely that there was a huge flood in that general region of where civilization existed at that time. So in that regard, we really have no necessary conflict in belief.

There is another important point I have to bring up regarding this… If I remember correctly, there were at least two words for “world” in the Hebrew language. One supposedly referred to the earth as a whole, and the other meant something like just all of the land known by mankind. I may try doing some research on it a little later on, or if someone else reading this thread knows you could PM me and I’d make any appropriate corrections.
[/quote]

well…now… the question I have for you is… if the Bible is not historical and you admit it has some fallacies…and i totally agree if infact its not supposed to be historical…how doyou know Isa (pbuh) was the Son of God? an objective answer would help :slight_smile:


#20

Because:

[INDENT]He [Prophet Muhammed] does not speak of his own desire; it is but a Revelation which is sent down to him. One mighty in power has taught him, who is endowed with great wisdom.
[Surah AnNajm 53:3-5][/INDENT]



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