Old Testament and priest atonement


#1

This is from another thred that was drifting off and I need alittle help.

Originally Posted by Odell
So where does the priest fit in? In Leviticus 5:5-6 we have a solid prefiguring/foreshadowing of confession and this is carried over into the New Covenant. In Lev. 5:5-6 it says, “When a man is guilty in any of these, he shall confess the sin he has committed, and he shall bring his guilt offering to the Lord for the sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.” Note how the penitent must confess and take his sin offering to the priest, and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin. This requires knowledge of the sin on the part of the priest.

originally posted by Zahava

No, Odell, you are mistaken. Please take a look at I Kings chapter 8. Shlomo /Solomon is inaugurating the Temple just built.
In the midst of his praising - he tells the people WAIT ONE DAY the following will happen.BUT THIS IS HOW G-D WILL HEAR YOUR PRAYERS, IF YOU DO THIS

  1. If they sin against You, for (there is) no man who does not sin, and You will be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, and their captors will carry them away captive to the land of the enemy, far or near.
  2. And they shall bethink themselves in the land where they were carried captive, and repent, and make supplication to You in the land of their captors, saying, ‘We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness.’
  3. And they shall return to You with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, who led them away captive, and pray to You toward their land, which You gave to their fathers, the city that You have chosen, and the house which I have built for Your Name.
  4. And you shall hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven, Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause.
  5. And forgive Your people what they have sinned against You, and all their transgressions that they have transgressed against You, and give mercy before their captors, that they may have mercy on them.51. For they are Your people, and Your inheritance, whom You have taken out of Egypt, from within the smelting furnace of iron.
  6. That Your eyes may be open to the supplication of Your servant, and to the supplication of your people Israel, to hearken to them whenever they call to You.
  7. For You set them apart from among all the peoples of the earth, Your inheritance, as You spoke through Moses Your servant, when You brought our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord, God."

Please tell me why the righteous King Solomon did not tell them to confess their sins to a priest?

mabe because he didnt want to:shrug:

Can you please tell me why priest where alowed to make atonment for someone elses sins this is also in response to you saying

In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: “God is near to all who call unto Him” (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: “You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME,” meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)

but yet this is not what it looks like to me with priest making ATONEMENT

continued…


#2

Now, Christians say, “but the wages of sin is death!”

Let’s see what G-d says

Ezekial 18 Now the context of this whole chapter is vicarious atonement. IT IS REPULSIVE TO G-D.

  1. The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
  2. And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
  3. All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live.23. Do I desire the death of the wicked? says the Lord God. Is it not rather in his repenting of his ways that he may live?
  4. And when the righteous repents of his righteousness and does wrong and does like all the abominations that the wicked man did, shall he live? All his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered; in his treachery that he has perpetrated and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die.
  5. Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right!’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is not right? Is it not rather your ways that are not right?
  6. When a righteous man repents of his righteousness and does wrong and dies on that account; for the wrong that he has done he should die.
  7. And when a wicked man repents of his wickedness that he has done, and does justice and righteousness, he will keep his soul alive.
  8. He will see and repent of all his transgressions that he has committed-he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Sin leads to death just as I highlighted in your passage. but if we repent God will forgive. Surly you dont thank you will get in heaven will the stain of sin do you?


#3

Could you explain what the disagreement is? Where you talking about confessing our sins to a preist in the New Covenant?

Your first qoute is correct.

In the Sin Offering an animal (young bull, goat, lamb, turtledoves, etc.) is offered to atone for sin and purifies the sinner (see Leviticus 4:1-5:13; 6:24-30).

The Guilt Offering is a ram offered in atonement for desecration or some offense against a neighbor (see Leviticus 5:14-6:7; 7:1-10).

Israel’s Law required that priests make the sacrifices in the Temple on behalf of individual Israelites and the nation, these sacrifices were nonetheless deeply personal affairs.

As we observed in considering the “guilt” and “sin” offerings, sacrifice often served as an act of renunciation and sorrow for sins. The “blood” of the animal symbolized the life of the one offering the sacrifice. Recognizing that his sins deserved death, the person offered the animal’s life in place of his own.

If the discussion was about New Testament, please explain?

Peace,

Ryan :slight_smile:


#4

Please tell me why the righteous King Solomon did not tell them to confess their sins to a priest?

Because the righteous King Solomon did not have to tell them what was commonly known and practiced. The quote mentions repentance and doing righteous deeds.

  1. And when a wicked man repents of his wickedness that he has done, AND does justice and righteousness, he will keep his soul alive.

So much for faith alone.

Num. 5:7 - this shows the historical practice of publicly confessing sins, and making public restitution.

2 Sam. 12:14 - even though the sin is forgiven, there is punishment due for the forgiven sin. David is forgiven but his child was still taken (the consequence of his sin).

Neh. 9:2-3 - the Israelites stood before the assembly and confessed sins publicly and interceded for each other.

Just because one chapter in 1 Kings doesn’t explicitly state the requirement to confess, that doesn’t mean it was not practiced by the Isrealites. Attacking the ancient practice of confessing sins must take place when one accepts the abolishment of the priesthood. This abolishment is a reformist invention, and contrary to the Bible.

James 5:15-16 - in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man’s authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.
scripturecatholic.com/confession.html
The ancient Jews had a special ritual meal called the Todah (Hebrew: thanks). The Todah sacrificed an animal, but it was greater than other animal sacrifices because it added the suffering of one’s own life.
Our Father in heaven was slowly preparing His covenant children for the move from animal sacrifices to the Final Sacrifice. (Ps 40:6,8) “Burnt offering and sin offering Thou hast not required. … I delight to do Thy will, O my God; Thy law is within my heart.”

Again, David wrote, (Ps 51:17) "The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit."
And again, (Ps 69:30) "I will praise the name of God with a song; I will magnify Him with thanksgiving. This will please the Lord more than an ox or a bull with horns and hoofs."
Isaiah spoke the words of God, (Is 1:11) "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams."
God called instead for a baptism: (Is 1:16) “Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from My eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good.”

The ancient rabbis believed that when the Messiah would come all sacrifices except the Todah would cease, but the Todah would continue for all eternity. In 70 AD the Temple fell to earth and all of the bloody animal sacrifices stopped.
Only the Todah remains, the eucharistia, the Final Sacrifice at which the last words spoken are Todah l’Adonai, "Thanks be to God."
ourgardenofcarmel.org/marty.html
What are the last words spoken at Mass? “Thanks be to God.”

Malachi 1:11 - this is a prophecy of a pure offering that will be offered in every place from the rising of the sun to its setting. Thus, there will be only one sacrifice, but it will be offered in many places around the world. This prophecy is fulfilled only by the Catholic Church in the Masses around the world, where the sacrifice of Christ which transcends time and space is offered for our salvation. If this prophecy is not fulfilled by the Catholic Church, then Malachi is a false prophet. No priest, no eucharistia.

Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a “protestant” rebellion against God’s chosen Moses in an effort to confuse the distinction between the ministerial and universal offices of priesthood, and Korah and his followers perished. (This effort to blind the distinctions between the priests and the laity is still pursued by dissidents today.)


#5

Thanks guys

I do want to remain as much isn th eol testament though unless we get some protestant brothers and sisters in this descussion. This is a Jew that was responding to our confession to a priest:shrug:

Are there some Jews that do or dont belive in the whole priest thing?


#6

Most certainly punishment is handed over even if one confesses their sin. G-d states that no sin goes unpunished. However, just because the sin is punished does not mean that G-d has not forgiven the person. Just as David was forgiven in the above matter.

We confesses our sins as Shlomo taught us to. There is no need to make confessing to a Priest being that the Temple is destroyed. Religious Jews from the time of the destruction of the
2nd Temple have prayed just as Shlomo/Solomon taught us to. Even today, religious Jews, in every corner of this present galus we are in, daven and pray towards Jerusalem just as taught.

Thy law mentioned in Ps 40:6,8 is that of Torah commandments (613 and 7 for Noahides)

ourgardenofcarmel.org/marty.html
What are the last words spoken at Mass? “Thanks be to God.”

[FONT=“Times New Roman”]Malachi 1:11 - this is a prophecy of a pure offering that will be offered in every place from the rising of the sun to its setting. Thus, there will be only one sacrifice, but it will be offered in many places around the world. This prophecy is fulfilled only by the Catholic Church in the Masses around the world, where the sacrifice of Christ which transcends time and space is offered for our salvation. If this prophecy is not fulfilled by the Catholic Church, then Malachi is a false prophet. No priest, no eucharistia.

SO TRUE REGARDING THE THANKSGIVING OFFERING. The sacrificial system will be restored in the Messianic Era. However, the only private sacrifices which will be accepted will be the thanksgiving offering. Since man’s heart will have been circumcised, the desire to sin will no longer exist, and the private sacrifices which are brought to atone for sins will no longer be needed. Similarly, the only prayers which will be necessary will be prayers of thanksgiving.

Thinking here that people still of this desire to sin, correct?

And do you think Catholics invented the thanksgiving offering said in Mass? Most certainly, they did not. Religious Jews have over 100 blessings to G-d in their prayers. We offer HODO to the one true G-d many times a day. It starts from the moment we wake up and before we leave our bed.


#7

then you would have to understand Jesus even as a Jew because the temple was not destroyed until after Jesus.

God established a priesthood in the old testament. As well in the new testament. and we confess to a priest just as jews confessed there sins to priest prior to the destruction of the temple.

As catholics we belive the temple is now in heaven

and we vesit the temple or heaven every time w e go to Mass

We “lift up our hearts” to heaven and are, in a real sense, “caught up in spirit” and taken into a liturgy that’s always going on in heaven (see Revelation 4:2).

That’s what was revealed to the Apostle John in the Bible’s last book. In fact, it’s the Mass that makes sense of the puzzling, and often frightening visions and symbols of Revelation.

What’s revealed to John is that the Mass we celebrate on earth is a participation in the liturgy of heaven.

John is “caught up in spirit on the Lord’s Day.” In other words, possibly while celebrating the Eucharist himself, John is taken to heaven.

And John sees the same things we see when we come to Mass.
He sees an altar (see Revelation 8:3); candles (1:12); incense (5:8); priests dressed in robes (4:4). And he sees bread or manna (2:17), and bowls or chalices of blood (see Revelation 16).

He sees heavenly worshippers – angels and saints – crying, “Holy, Holy, Holy” (4:8), singing a hymn to the glory of God, the heavenly king (15:3) and shouting “alleluia” (19:1,3,6) and making the sing of the cross on their foreheads (14:1).

There are readings from Scripture (Revelation 2-3), and, finally, the “wedding feast of the Lamb” (19:9).

With the Angels and Saints

John is invited to “come up here” (see Revelation 4:1). And we are invited to come up to heaven, as well – to lift up our hearts - at the beginning of our Liturgy of the Eucharist.

When we lift up our hearts, we are asked to sing with the angels and saints.

This is not simply a fine expression of sentiment. As with everything else in the Mass, there is a “sacramental realism” at work here.

At this point in the Mass, we are in a mysterious way joining our song to the song that John – and the prophet Isaiah before him – heard in heaven: “Holy, holy, holy . . .” (see Revelation 4:8; Isaiah 6:3).

The second part of our song ("Blessed is he . . . ") is taken from the Psalm that pilgrims to Jerusalem would sing at Passover. It was also the psalm that was sung upon Christ’s triumphal entry to Jerusalem (see Mark 11:10; Psalm 118:26).

The biblical words give us clues to what’s going on in the Mass. We have gathered around the altar – not only an earthly altar, but a heavenly altar as well. We have made our way to Mount Zion, the new and heavenly Jerusalem.

**This is what John saw – “the Lamb standing on Mount Zion” (see Revelation 14:1).

The Letter to the Hebrews (see Hebrews 12:22-24) likewise speaks of the Eucharistic celebration on earth as entrance into and participation in the heavenly liturgy in the new Jerusalem**.

In the Mass, says Hebrews, we approach “Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.” There, we join “countless angels” and “the assembly of the firstborn” and Jesus, “mediator of the new covenant and the sprinkled blood” in a “festal gathering” or feast.

And notice the similarities between Hebrews’ description of the Mass and John’s Revelation. Both see a new Jerusalem, a new Zion, the dwelling place of the Lord (see Psalm 132:13-14). Both see angels and Jesus, the Lamb whose blood takes away the sin of the world. And both see a “feast” and a gathering of “firstborn” or “firstfruits” of those who believe in Jesus (see Revelation 14:4). And both see in this feast in the temple of heaven a sign of the new covenant wrought in the blood of Jesus (see Revelation 11:19)

What these Scriptures show us is that the Mass is the summit of salvation history told in Scripture.

And this is the same thing that the prayers of the Mass tell us.

Again the key to understanding revelation is the mass.

if you have the time listen to this and tell me what you think.

salvationhistory.com/book…audioRsrcs.cfm

and scroll down to
The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass and the Apocalypse

also all this from the same website. This is a bible study on the subject. I deffenently recomend reading Scott Hanns book the Lambs supper.

salvationhistory.com/onli…urse2_home.cfm

continued…


#8

And do you think Catholics invented the thanksgiving offering said in Mass? Most certainly, they did not. Religious Jews have over 100 blessings to G-d in their prayers. We offer HODO to the one true G-d many times a day. It starts from the moment we wake up and before we leave our bed.

This is not what he is saying at all. The early Jews would have understood the thankoffering at Mass because we GOT it from the Jews Christianity came from you guys.

therefore you should be able to see that Catholicism is a close as you can get to Jewdism compared to protestants because we are the first Church Christ founded.

You really would understand alot of Catholicism from your Jewish theology. And I think it is awsome because I learn alot about my faith from you and im sure you could say the same,

God bless


#9

I’m still a little fuzzy if the topic is more concerned with confession or the eucharist, but here is some more OT verses about confession.

Numbers 5:7 - this shows the historical practice of publicly confessing sins, and making public restitution.

Nehemiah 9:2-3 - the Israelites stood before the assembly and confessed sins publicly and interceded for each other.

Sir. 4:26 - God tells us not to be ashamed to confess our sins, and not to try to stop the current of a river. Anyone who has experienced the sacrament of reconciliation understands the import of this verse.

Baruch 1:14 - again, this shows that the people made confession in the house of the Lord, before the assembly.

This carries over into the New Testament

James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins.

Acts 19:18 - many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today.

Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5 - again, this shows people confessing their sins before others as an historical practice (here to John the Baptist).

1 Tim. 6:12 - this verse also refers to the historical practice of confessing both faith and sins in the presence of many witnesses.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess are sins, God is faithful to us and forgives us and cleanse us. But we must confess our sins to one another.

Peace,

Ryan :slight_smile:


#10

Christians understood this from our Jewish sages, Odell, as the Midrash says that the Third Temple has already been constructed in heaven, and merely awaits our preparations here on earth.

When the Messiah comes he will teach all mankind to live in peace and follow God’s teachings. The prophets thus foretold: (The 3rd Temple in Heaven WILL be on earth)

Jeremiah 3:17
At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the LORD, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the LORD. No longer will they follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts.

(Isaiah 2:2-4, Micah 4:1-3)
“It shall come to pass in the end of days, that the mountain of God’s house shall be set over all other mountains and lifted high above the hills; and all nations shall come streaming to it. Many people shall come and say, ‘Come, let us go up to God’s mountain, to the house of Israel’s God.** He (the Messiah) will teach us His ways, and we will walk in His paths.’ For Torah (not the New Testament) shall go forth out of Zion, and God’s word from Jerusalem**. And he (the Messiah) will judge between nations and decide between peoples. And they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither will they practice war anymore.”

Jerusalem will become the center of worship and instruction for all mankind. God thus told His prophet, “I will return to Zion and I will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem, and Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth and the Mountain of the God of Hosts, the Holy Mountain” (Zechariah 8:3).

To get this thread back to atonement - I will point to my post in another thread
forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=2916181&postcount=67


#11

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