On another forum someone said


Hey ya!

This might sounds a bit wierd but I was wondering if there was a member (or members) here who would be willing to help me out in defending the Church’s teaching since I don’t have the time right now. It’s a discussion with a Protestant member hvg3akaek in (Please PM this member for info if interested.) in thread but it’s a different different site (actually a gaming site :p). I hope I’m not asking too much (thought I probably am :o)!

Pax Christi! :slight_smile:


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Apologetics Forum

                                              Originally Posted by **Summoner**
             *Oh, sorry, thanks for setting me straight. That language is indeed Biblical.*

no problem, happy to help out.

                                              Huh? I think you're a bit confused about Church's teachings.                                 

Please don’t fall into the same pattern that so many others do…

If you think that I am a bit confused about this guy called “Church”, and his teachings, then great, you are free to say so. but if that is all you do, you have not contributed to anything. I know no better, others reading know no better. In fact, I doubt that many could discern from your abstract phrasing exactly what the confusion was, or what the ‘correct’ teachings of Mr Church were. So, instead of saying simply “I think you are confused/wrong/in error”, show me how I am confused, wrong, or in error. Show me what the teachings really are. Show me how the Pope is not the “Holy Father”, for example.

                 And you also know why I did that as I explained it. I found the debate very unchristian (which I admit was partially also my fault) and when you implied that I'm being brainwashed I decided to drop out of the debate.            

Well, it was definitely ‘un-Christian’ in that it was about heretical teachings http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif As to brainwashed, your word or mine? Definitely taught heretical beliefs, and brought up on them and an understanding that you should take the priest/bishop/pope’s word over the Bible’s.

Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Great! (well, not so great in the pleasing-to-God sense…)

**Confession **- why? Why do you need to tell some priest what you have done wrong? Why does the priest have to absolve you? Why is asking God for forgiveness not enough? And, if you want to tell someone else (that isn’t wrong), why the priest? Why not a friend? Why not a sibling, or a bible-study member (you do do bible study, right?) And why do you do the various other things prescribed afterwards? “hail mary” and so forth? What do these penances do for you?

Mass - why? Does it somehow ‘wash’ your sins of the past week away? Do you chew the bread/wafers? Does the priest have to finish off all the wine/bread at the end of it? (why is this?) If you miss a week, is that bad? Would you pour out the wine, or throw out the bread, if there was stuff left over? (why not?) Would you be OK if someone else, a 'lay-person", led the mass? Why/why not? Would you be ok in leading mass, nerves and memory of what to do aside? Why/why not? What is really happening when the priest blesses the wine/bread?

Mary / the ‘saints’ - why? Why not just pray to God the father, through Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit? What is it about Mary/Saints that makes it ‘better’? Why not me? Why don’t you pray for me to intercede for you? Or any other living saint? Why do you think that M/S can hear you, when they are mere humans without any God-like powers of omniscience? And why can they get God’s ear better than you yourself could? Why would God listen to them, but not you? Why the dead “Saints”, and not the dead “saints”? (that is, the RC classification of saints vs the biblical classification of saints, the former being miracle workers and somehow special, the latter being anyone who follows Christ)

                                              I just stated my point of view since I already decided to post the first part.                                 

http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif It was a little more than “views”. You did not say “I think Calvins teachings on predestination were heretical”< you claimed that they were. The former, you could get away with no backing up (although it is still dodgy). the latter needs backing up http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

                                              Don't "push" me or I will and then fail my exams and sue you!  http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif                                  

c’mon, now, neither of us are americans, that wont work! http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

((the above is just a jestful poke at the funny legal practices of some USA-ians, and not meant to be taken seriously or as a general statement of all who would fit into the above classification http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ))


I will give you a short answer that will probably not be very satisfactory . My answer: Calvinist view on predestination is a relatively new concept in Christianity and above all it is something that the Early Church Father would clearly reject. So either we were living in total ignorance for 1500 years or he is wrong. Above that, the Most Holy hates sin and he could not for any reason force us to to commit sin. While God knows about all sin but he does not will it.

Predestination does not mean that God makes us sin http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Additionally, the argument about not being found until 1500 is almost an “argument from outrage”. It fails big time on two accounts:

(1) the fact that it was formed then does not mean that it was not believed beforehand. As we can see with the way the Roman Catholic organisation went off the tracks, and needed protesting against, there were many things that the church was ignorant of. God allowed it, even though he did not want it.

(2) the pope was not infallible until 1800’s. Even longer before the doctrine came about! http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

                                             Indulgences -> yes

Purgatory -> yes
Mary-worship -> no place for such thing in Christianity
Pope - heck yes! http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

great! So you agree that three of the four are heretical, and that one has no place in Christianity http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif I am most pleased.

So let me conclude by this. I do apologize that I can’t offer you more than that. Once I have time I will reconsider my last statement in this thread. I don’t know why you’re discussing here. You might be searching for truth (after all, we all are) or you might be here because you like discussing. In any case, if you want to discuss the “heresies” of catholicism while avoiding the people who left catholicism while knowing VERY little about what the Church teaches (I believe you mentioned several people like that) or those catholics that were purely catechized, join the forum I posted above (it has a considerable number of non-catholics and non-Christians so you may actually discuss things). Otherwise that’s all I can do now. It might sound cheesy, but believe me, I didn’t come here to debate in the first place.

The main reason I am discussing things here? Because people have made claims that are incorrect, and I wish to show others (the claimers and people who are just reading) how these things fail. I do not wish for ignorance to spread!

The middle part of the above doesn’t really apply, unless you would like to be more specific. And no, I don’t want to join yet another forum http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Too many already!

just want to say that If there weren’t people who believe these anti-catholics I would actually find them very funny. Last thing I learned from Chick is that IHS stands for Isis, Horus, Seb (we’ve got to love those catholics, those pegan woshipers http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif ). He is just so educational! http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Yah, it is sad what Chick spreads http://www.dndonlinegames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif


Ordinarily I would not do all that, but I am trying to display how one can bring over posts from other forums without breaking the board swarm policy here at CAF.

It took a little work, but if one really wants answers… it may prove worthwhile.

Please feel free to answer the things that MFJ encountered.


Ups, I’m sorry and I appologize. :o Thank you for taking your time by reposting the conversation here! :slight_smile:

In Christ,


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