This has been bothering me for the last week and a half, I came across a person that stated she loved being Catholic, but went on saying the Church itself was not the best thing.
She was saying that they, the Church, needed to change the stance on abortion along with many other things.
My question in how to deal with someone like this where they clearly have no intentions on keeping to the teachings of the Church?
I know that I am not perfect, but I try to hold to what the Church teaches, was it wrong for me not to get into a long debate on why she should not think that way?
Keep in mind I was at my place at work and the lady was a colleague of my mother.
What I would do personally is first of all don’t condemn her don’t come out and say your not catholic cause you think abortion is ok. The second you said your not catholic you lost her.
What I would do when the time feels right ask her "do you mind if I ask you some questions about abortion?
if she says yes then ask her “why do you think abortion should be wrong?”
she might say its a women’s free choice or if a women should have control over her body, or its not the governments job to tell me what to do with my body. So on and so forth.
you should do a strategy called trout out the toddler.
where you try and get her to agree that the question isn’t does a women have the freedom to do whatever she wants or does she have full control over her body, rather its about whether the baby is human or not. Try to get here there with mostly questions.
also if the argument ever gets heated back down off of it right away. You want the discussion to be low key, you want both parties to be ok with the way the conversation is going, and it shouldn’t turn into a shouting match.
also don’t be discouraged if she still disagrees with you.
to make this long post longer, but to give a summary. I think trying to convincer that he view of abortion is incorrect is the best way to show how she should change. NEVER condemn her view, if you do that you just lost your chance to gain her soul back to God.
Sounds like she “loves being Catholic” so long as she doesn’t actually have to “BE Catholic”…
I think that people like this are somewhat like the rich young man. Yes they can accept and do certain things, but other, more difficult things, they cannot accept and do.
How to approach such matters will depend on each specific incident, timing etc…
Canon 750. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.
Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firmly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.
Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.
Waving Canon Law under peoples nose (or shoving it up their noses) is probably not going to get them to change their opinions; they’ll immediately go on the defensive. If you want someone to change their position you’ll have to win their hearts and minds and get them to think differently. They have to change their own minds; you can’t do it for them.
Never underestimate the power of prayer in the miracle of conversion of hearts. I’ve no doubt that when I was (apparently) just like her, it was the power of my loved ones prayers that jump started my own conversion. And pray for yourself that the Holy Spirit will guide you in the way HE would have you interact with her.
My position may sound harsh but personally I don’t understand why someone would call themselves catholic and don’t share half of the catholic faith, and I have noticed this is pretty much a Catholic issue only. If you belong to any other faith and you made a statement like “I love this religion but I don’t agree with this and that” they would probably say then what are you doing here, and I seriously think that would be the best to do. Yes we do have to pray for people’s conversion but trying to get into a one on one effort to change the mind of a person who already have an established belief is going to be most likely a waste of time, especially in topics like abortion where pro-choices have such radicals view. So when I encounter someone like that my answer is if you don’t agree with a faith then don’t be part of it and just pray to God for that person’s conversation.
I guess i did not make it clear, the statements where said because I said I was Catholic.
And she, I guess, thought to say those things because she saw and opportunity to express, to a younger person, her views or rather influence me into believing her views.
She went on to give justifications for the views, the general ones that people always hear, “well, if my daughter, who is 12 gets pregnant you rest assure that …”
I do not want to go further because it just frustrates me to hear people say such things.
As if it where the babes fault.
You are right Debora, I probably could have reworded the question better. However, when someone is trying to instill their beliefs, which do not correspond with the teaching of the Church, on me, Is my business.
Does this mean she has approached you and started talking to you about this? If that’s the case, then yes, you would be correct in that you have every business to challenge her on that. Sorry if I misunderstood.
does she also want the Church to change her position on murder? Should some murders be justified then? put the question to her in a way that confronts her with the illogic of her positions, and makes her see where she is putting her own views in the place of Christ’s teaching, and then calling it right.
The best way to do this is to be consistent yourself.
We are our brothers keeper though. He or she is a brother or sister in Christ and we do have an obligation to help them. Nobody will learn anything if we let people wander in ignorance. We shouldn’t condemn them or beat them over the head with the catechism, but gently guide them toward the truth.
If we see our brother or sister in error, we should make the effort to discuss it with them privately. If they do not repent, we take two or three witnesses so that every fact may be established. If he or she doesn’t listen to them, we take it to the Church. If he or she doesn’t listen to the Church, they are an anathema.
please stop me if this frustrates you to much, but the way I would address this just to give you an example of how the trot out the toddler but you would ask her.
“ok lets say that a 12 year old living on her own gets pregnant has a baby and then decides this is to much for me to care for, or she is adopted and her parents say a 12 year old shouldn’t have a baby lets go ahead and kill. It would you be ok with that”
she would obviously say no that’s crazy
you would say in response then why is it ok to abort a fetus in a 12 year old girl.
she would hopefully say because its not human
you just trotted out the toddler.
now you go about proving the fetus truly is a human.
this is actually kinda of a difficult one to trot out.
but you always take their situation, and apply it to a two year old, if they say that they wouldn’t kill a 2 year old but then would a fetus, then you are getting at the real issue. you have proven to them the real issue whether a 12 year old should raise and have a baby, or how much money someone has rather its about is the unborn human.
btw when discussing these things with pro choice people I like to call the unborn by what they call it, its pointless to get into a discussion with someone about medical defniitons of the human development.
Call it fertilization, fetus zigot and all the other stuff they call an unborn.
Correct, but I think there is a right and a wrong way to go about doing that. If you overhear someone you barely know mentioning to someone else that they think abortion is right, do you really think you’ll make a great impression if you randomly go up to them and start arguing? That is very confrontational, and people don’t respond well to that.
In my opinion, the best way to evangelize is by silent and humble example… if someone approaches you and wants to talk about morals or religion or whatever, then yes, by all means, talk to them about it and discuss your views.
However, being too preachy in the wrong time/place will just push people away and make things worse.