On outlawing abortion, contraception, and sodomy


#1

renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/120921

From the article:
Certainly, the government cannot outlaw every sinful or immoral act since it would be impossible to enforce, and human law is imperfect. Serious harm to the one and the many, however, warrants the inclusion of civil proscription. Just as we have a distinction between venial and mortal sins, there is a difference between a misdemeanor and a felony. We cannot compel by civil law people to act or do good, but we can and must outlaw sinful and evil acts which seriously threaten the person and/or the community. Danger to the institutions of marriage and family is no less serious than danger to one's life, health, property or reputation. Law protects the latter and should protect the former as well.


#2

[quote="markeverett49, post:1, topic:299757"]
Danger to the institutions of marriage and family is no less serious than danger to one's life, health, property or reputation. Law protects the latter and should protect the former as well.

[/quote]

So why stop at gay marriage? Divorce certainly effects far more people than gay marriage. Why aren't people trying to outlaw divorce?


#3

Gay marriage isn’t the issue here: it is abortion, contraception, and sodomy. I think a strong case can be made that no-fault divorce laws have had a negative impact on women and children. If you want to start a thread on that, we could kick it around.


#4

[quote="markeverett49, post:3, topic:299757"]
Gay marriage isn't the issue here: it is abortion, contraception, and sodomy. I think a strong case can be made that no-fault divorce laws have had a negative impact on women and children. If you want to start a thread on that, we could kick it around.

[/quote]

I don't agree with outlawing any of these things. Outlawing contraception would cause more problems than it would fix. There would be far more unwanted children or abortions and STD's would become more rampant than they already are.

Outlawing sodomy is absolutely absurd though. Why not outlaw masturbation too?


#5

[quote="interestedman, post:4, topic:299757"]
I don't agree with outlawing any of these things. Outlawing contraception would cause more problems than it would fix. There would be far more unwanted children or abortions and STD's would become more rampant than they already are.

Outlawing sodomy is absolutely absurd though. Why not outlaw masturbation too?

[/quote]

Sodomy used to be outlawed (and may still be against the law in some states). I think divorce used to be outlawed as well. Abortion used to be against the law. Don't know if using contraception was ever against the law, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that it was. I do know that using it was considered a sin by most denominations up until the 20s or so.


#6

Abortion, comtraception, and sodomy have, at one time or another, been outllawed. If my remember right, all three have been declared legel by the courts.:shrug:


#7

[quote="interestedman, post:2, topic:299757"]
So why stop at gay marriage? Divorce certainly effects far more people than gay marriage. Why aren't people trying to outlaw divorce?

[/quote]

Atheism is primarily a moral problem within society, and secondarily an intellectual problem.

It's counter-logical for a Catholic to discuss with an Atheist the topic of morality. The Atheist points to the intellectual criteria of the moral issue being discussed, while the Catholic sees the Atheist as someone who already has darkened the mind with sin and the wisdom of God has vanished from their heart.

God places himself and his law within the reach of Atheist rational minds. Atheist desire to satisfy their passions, worldly pursuits, and demands of flesh can lead them to sin. This leads them to finding intellectual reasons against God, piling ingratitude with impiety until sin smothered truth within their consciousness. Persistent sin darkens the mind to the point of intellectual blindness; the heart darkens and grows cold for the laws of Love and God.

Catholic advice: Stop living in sin, then explore whether or not God exist. Live in sin, and it's logical that you seem to reject his existence. It's really that simple.

I mean this kindly, although it doesn't appear so. -James


#8

[quote="SwizzleStick, post:5, topic:299757"]
Sodomy used to be outlawed (and may still be against the law in some states). I think divorce used to be outlawed as well. Abortion used to be against the law. Don't know if using contraception was ever against the law, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that it was. I do know that using it was considered a sin by most denominations up until the 20s or so.

[/quote]

Contraception was illegal in many states, if not all.. (You couldn't buy contraceptives.) Many people assume Catholics were responsible for such laws but this is a mistake---most anti-contraception laws were the handiwork of Protestant legislators.


#9

[quote="interestedman, post:4, topic:299757"]
I don't agree with outlawing any of these things. Outlawing contraception would cause more problems than it would fix. There would be far more unwanted children or abortions and STD's would become more rampant than they already are.

[/quote]

Can you prove any of that?

Outlawing sodomy is absolutely absurd though. Why not outlaw masturbation too?

What possible good could sodomy satisfy SO MUCH that they needed to be legalized in the first place?


#10

98% of abortions are due to woman using some form of contraception, that evidently didn’t work.

“Be abstinent, but if you don’t, here are instructions on how to contracept.” This encourages young people to fail, to contracept, to contracept badly, and allows them to greater promiscuity, increase in STD’s, more abortions, at a greater level than before.

Contraception gave rise to more STD’s. In 1960’s when birth control became mainstream, there was approx 2 main STD’s. By 1990 there was 25 major STD’s.

-James


#11

[quote="markeverett49, post:1, topic:299757"]
renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/120921

From the article:
Certainly, the government cannot outlaw every sinful or immoral act since it would be impossible to enforce, and human law is imperfect. Serious harm to the one and the many, however, warrants the inclusion of civil proscription. Just as we have a distinction between venial and mortal sins, there is a difference between a misdemeanor and a felony. We cannot compel by civil law people to act or do good, but we can and must outlaw sinful and evil acts which seriously threaten the person and/or the community. Danger to the institutions of marriage and family is no less serious than danger to one's life, health, property or reputation. Law protects the latter and should protect the former as well.

[/quote]

Great piece. Thanks


#12

When dealing with the U.S., it's important to remember that a function of government is not to micromanage personal behavior. Obviously, we're moving in that direction as we move further away from our founding principles and more toward socialism.

The problem with the micromanaging of personal behavior is that the result may not be what Catholics want; it is far more likely to be in line with current Protestant thinking. So you can have your choice: personal behavior left out of the law, or laws that are likely to be contrary to Catholic position.


#13

[quote="JaKael02, post:10, topic:299757"]
98% of abortions are due to woman using some form of contraception, that evidently didn't work.

[/quote]

Actually, 100% of abortions are due to woman choosing to have abortions.

“Be abstinent, but if you don’t, here are instructions on how to contracept.” This encourages young people to fail, to contracept, to contracept badly, and allows them to greater promiscuity, increase in STD’s, more abortions, at a greater level than before.

Contraception gave rise to more STD's. In 1960's when birth control became mainstream, there was approx 2 main STD's. By 1990 there was 25 major STD's.

-James

The issue is, and continues to be, the underlying morality of the society. Contraception is a symptom, not a cause, or it. Banning contraception will the current morality of society in place certainly won't reduce abortion, and in fact may increase it.


#14

--- and choosing to kill the consequences of their own voluntary actions.


#15

Well, you got that right, at least.

I can’t believe that that is a serious question.

There never was a time when someone tried to decide what should be legal in regard to what people get up to in the bedroom. People were actually dumb enough at one time to try to make things illegal that consenting adults could do in private, but we’ve moved on from there.

And hey, guess what. I have sex with my wife sometimes when we don’t actually have intercourse. Yeah, I know, shocking isn’t it. What do you think everyone should do? Missionary position only when you want to conceive? Is anything else acceptable?

Would you like to see anal sex made illegal?


#16

If either contraception or sodomy became illegal, then I think secularists could start worrying about the USA turning into a Christian theocracy.

[quote="Lochias, post:9, topic:299757"]
What possible good could sodomy satisfy SO MUCH that they needed to be legalized in the first place?

[/quote]

How can you justify having that much control over someone's life? That's just so personal it's beyond the control of the law.


#17

[quote="tabycat, post:6, topic:299757"]
Abortion, comtraception, and sodomy have, at one time or another, been outllawed. If my remember right, all three have been declared legel by the courts.:shrug:

[/quote]

[quote="markeverett49, post:8, topic:299757"]
Contraception was illegal in many states, if not all.. (You couldn't buy contraceptives.) Many people assume Catholics were responsible for such laws but this is a mistake---most anti-contraception laws were the handiwork of Protestant legislators.

[/quote]

Thank you both for the confirmation and clarification about contraception being illegal in days gone by. I appreciate it. I thought that might be the case, but didn't remember for sure.


#18

[quote="Regular_Atheist, post:16, topic:299757"]
If either contraception or sodomy became illegal, then I think secularists could start worrying about the USA turning into a Christian theocracy..

[/quote]

Well, they used to be illegal here, as was abortion, yet the USA was not then thought a Christian theocracy.


#19

[quote="Regular_Atheist, post:16, topic:299757"]
If either contraception or sodomy became illegal, then I think secularists could start worrying about the USA turning into a Christian theocracy.

[/quote]

Up until very recently they were illegal and
Unfortunately they no longer are.

How can you justify having that much control over someone's life? That's just so personal it's beyond the control of the law.

All types of "personal" issues are regulated by law.


#20

[quote="fix, post:19, topic:299757"]

All types of "personal" issues are regulated by law.

[/quote]

What children eat at school, for example. What size soda one can buy in a New York fast-food restaurant. Now there's talk about taking vending machines out of public hospitals (-or at least, taking candy out of the machines.) All this because it promotes public health. I think public health is a legitimate concern of government, though that doesn't anything done under the banner of 'promoting public health' is a good thing.

One might argue that had sodomy laws remained in place and "bath houses" closed down, many fewer people would have died from AIDS.


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