Once saved always saved, scriptural proof


#1

Quote:
But thats just it, your the only adding the forever puryified part, once pirged of our confessed sins then yes we are foever purged of those sins, nut it NEVER says we are forever puryfied of every sin there after, thats fabrication my ****er…

“Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord UPHOLDETH HIM WITH HIS HAND.” (Ps. 37:24)

Though he fall -is a reference to a believer who has committed a sin.

he shall not be utterly cast down - means that the sinning believer has not lost his salvation.

Why does the sinning believer not lose his salvation?

Because God upholds the sinning believer with His hand.

Christ was judged for all sin, even the unbelievers sin.

Sin is not the issue. Christ delt with it. .

Quote:
then indeed there is no such thing as covering for future sins and salvation is not secure.

Out of fellowship doesnt mean you are out of the family of God.
It means you are a wayward kid that is about to get spanked.

Quote:
Sorry that is not supported by scripture, your not even christian, you are not a christian, I would go so far as to say portestantism is of satan. You’re nothing but a product of satan…

2 Tim. 2:13

“If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself.”

  • Paul is writing to believers, i.e., people who have already believed in Christ.

In John 3:16,
God says that if we believe in Christ, He will give us everlasting life.
Everlasting life lasts forever.
If He gives us everlasting life, and then takes it away from us, then what He gave us in the beginning was not everlasting life.
This, in effect, would make God a liar, which He is not.
Reason: He cannot deny Himself.
He cannot go back on His word, even though you and I might.

Quote:
Is this a prayer or in a inquery???
and funny how you want to add things that aren’t there…

lol, that was there.

They was speaking to God, with a plea for judgement of those who killed them.
There is nothing in the bible about dead saints carring the prayer of the living, like storks carry babies.


#2

You shall be punished for sins held at the time of your death. It has been taught that no one person dies in a complete state of grace. Even modern protestants, while they avoid the word “Purgatory”, frequently teach the doctrine of “the middle state”.

The Doctrine of Purgatory teaches that some die with smaller faults for which there was no true repentance, and also the fact that the temporal penalty due to sins is it times not wholly paid in this life. The proofs for the Catholic position, both in Scripture and in Tradition, are bound up also with the practice of praying for the dead.

Matthew 12:32 states "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but he that speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.


#3

If someone says they are saved, then what they are saying is that they already have been judged …or there is no need for them to be judged at the comsumation of their life, because they are already saved!

Scripture says we die, then we are judged. Dieing comes first. Not the other way around!


#4

[quote=auhsoj88]If someone says they are saved, then what they are saying is that they already have been judged …or there is no need for them to be judged at the comsumation of their life, because they are already saved!

Scripture says we die, then we are judged. Dieing comes first. Not the other way around!
[/quote]

Yeah, but what about those bible verses, I can’t get around them, thats why I posted this, please help me with those verses…


#5

[quote=Valtiel]Yeah, but what about those bible verses, I can’t get around them, thats why I posted this, please help me with those verses…
[/quote]

The only way to everlasting life is through Jesus Christ. Just remember that you will be judged for sins you did not truly repent during your life on earth.


#6

If I may add a thought here. God does give everlasting life to those who believe. But it’s necessary to realize that even Satan and demons believe. Even though all who believe will be given everlasting life, not all will accept it.

So, how does one “accept” it?

Jesus said in John 15: 1-2, “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch that does not bear fruit, he takes away…”, and verse 6, “… he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered , thrown into the fire and burned.” You see in these verses that the branches (or believers) that are attached to the vine (Jesus), must bear the fruit of their faith, or they will be cast off – from the vine.

There are many other conditions Jesus places on us so that everlasting life will be ours. We can waste what has been given us, and even, (at any time) reject it outright. But, there are no guarantees.


#7

:wave: Valtiel,

Psalm 37. The title in my Bible of psalm 37 is “The Heritatge of the Righteous and the Calamity of the wicked”

This psalm is comparing and contrasting what is going to happen to a righteous man compared to a wicked man. **Part of the inherent definition of righteous man would have to include repentance from sins. **It ultimately though is a psalm about trusting the Lord in all things, sometimes waiting in patience knowing that you will be delivered.

Verse 23The steps a good man are ordered by the Lord,
And He delights in his way.
24Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down;
For the Lord upholds him with His hand.

Look at the last two verses from this psalm:

Verse 39 But the salvation of the righteous is from the Lord;
He is their strength in the time of trouble.
40 And the Lord shall help them and deliver them;
He shall deliver them from the wicked,
And save them,
Because they trust in Him.

To read into that one is always saved is to ignore the fact this is about a righteous man and what a righteous man will do.

Though he fall -is a reference to a believer who has committed a sin.

yes

he shall not be utterly cast down - means that the sinning believer has not lost his salvation.

yes

Why does the sinning believer not lose his salvation?
Because God upholds the sinning believer with His hand

But the question then is why did God uphold the righteous man. Although the righteous man sinned, it is not about his sin but his righteousness. What does a righteous man do when he sins? He repents. That is why God held him in His hand. It also could be that this psalm is not refering to mortal sin but venial sin, sin that is not deadly.


#8

[quote=Valtiel]Quote:
But thats just it, your the only adding the forever puryified part, once pirged of our confessed sins then yes we are foever purged of those sins, nut it NEVER says we are forever puryfied of every sin there after, thats fabrication my ****er…

“Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord UPHOLDETH HIM WITH HIS HAND.” (Ps. 37:24)

Though he fall -is a reference to a believer who has committed a sin.

he shall not be utterly cast down - means that the sinning believer has not lost his salvation.

Why does the sinning believer not lose his salvation?

Because God upholds the sinning believer with His hand.

Christ was judged for all sin, even the unbelievers sin.

Sin is not the issue. Christ delt with it. .

Quote:
then indeed there is no such thing as covering for future sins and salvation is not secure.

Out of fellowship doesnt mean you are out of the family of God.
It means you are a wayward kid that is about to get spanked.

Quote:
Sorry that is not supported by scripture, your not even christian, you are not a christian, I would go so far as to say portestantism is of satan. You’re nothing but a product of satan…

2 Tim. 2:13

“If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself.”

  • Paul is writing to believers, i.e., people who have already believed in Christ.

In John 3:16,
God says that if we believe in Christ, He will give us everlasting life.
Everlasting life lasts forever.
If He gives us everlasting life, and then takes it away from us, then what He gave us in the beginning was not everlasting life.
This, in effect, would make God a liar, which He is not.
Reason: He cannot deny Himself.
He cannot go back on His word, even though you and I might.

Quote:
Is this a prayer or in a inquery???
and funny how you want to add things that aren’t there…

lol, that was there.

They was speaking to God, with a plea for judgement of those who killed them.
There is nothing in the bible about dead saints carring the prayer of the living, like storks carry babies.
[/quote]

ONe thing that aggravates me about Protestants if that they take verses out of context to make a point. (Yes, I know that this poster is Catholic) If you read the whole chapter of the Psalms it actually proves the Catholic position. PLease, please remember to read the whole chapter.

23 When a person’s steps follow the Lord, God is pleased with his ways. If he stumbles, he will not fall because the Lord holds his hand.

I put the word when in bold face. The verse is not saying that God will keep you no matter what. It is saying the opposite. You have to follow the Lord in order to have his protection. THe whole chapter in fact tells how a good man should act toward God and others. It is not justifying once saved, always saved.


#9

I would like to point out 2 Timothy 2:11-12

If we died with him, we shall also live with him, if we persevere we shall also reign with him.
If we accept suffering , we will also rule with him. If we refuse to accept him, he will refuse to accept us


These verses are written by Paul directly above the verse in 2 Timothy 2:13 that you quoted.


#10

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Okay true.

In John 3:16,
God says that if we believe in Christ, He will give us everlasting life.
Everlasting life lasts forever.

True

If He gives us everlasting life, and then takes it away from us, then what He gave us in the beginning was not everlasting life.

So is this guy saying that he will never die? I don’t mean not go to heaven but never die? If everlasting life means right now, that should then follow no one who is a Christian will ever keel over and die. They should all just be assumed into heaven or live to be hundreds of years old.

The everlasting is refering to life *after *our earthly life is finished.

This, in effect, would make God a liar, which He is not.
Reason: He cannot deny Himself.
He cannot go back on His word, even though you and I might.

No. God is not a liar, he just is misinterpreting God’s Word.

The Bible needs to be taken as a whole not one or two verses.

Mt. 7:21 not everyone sayin “lord, Lord” will inherit

Mt. 24:13 those who persevere to the end will be saved.

(conversely, those who do not persevere will not be saved!)

There are many more verses in the Bible telling us we need to hang on until the end lest we be lost. (Just so you know I am not taking out one or two verses:p )

There is nothing in the bible about dead saints carring the prayer of the living, like storks carry babies.

He is correct. There is nothing about dead saints. But those who live with Christ are not dead but alive. Of those, there actually are a few verses. But I am not sure if you need those or not.

And dinner needs to be made.

I hope this helps a little, but I did find your post a little confusing as to who said what. There did not seem to be a continuity to the dialogue.

Maybe it was just me and this mongo headache that is sitting on my head.

God Bless,
Maria


#11

The bible is your best friend. Have fun:

We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation

Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this “hope” does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.

Rom. 8:24 - this “hope” of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews “may be saved.” Why pray if it’s guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your “hope” (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.

2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a “hope” (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.

Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the “hope” (not the certainty) of righteousness.

Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the “hope” to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.

Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one “hope” (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.

Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.

Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ’s sufferings so that “if possible” he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.

Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and “hope” (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.

Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the “hope” (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.

Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the “hope” of the gospel which you heard.

Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the “hope” (not the certainty) of His glory.

1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of “hope” in Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our “hope” or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?

1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of “hope” (not of certainty) of salvation.

2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good “hope” through grace.

1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our “hope” (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.

1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our “hope” (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.

1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her “hope” (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.

1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.

2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they “may also obtain salvation.” This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.


#12

continued…

Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.

Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed “hope,” the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life.

Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ’s house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our “hope” (not our certainty).

Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of “hope” (not certainty) until the end.

Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the “hope” (not the certainty) that is set before us.

Heb. 6:19 - we have a “hope” that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.

Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better “hope” (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our “hope” without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things “hoped” for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).

Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.

Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.

James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.

1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living “hope” through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

1 Peter 1:13 - set your “hope” (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and “hope” are in God.

1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?

1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the “hope” that is in you. 1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus “hopes” in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.


#13

want more?

Jesus’ Teaching on Losing Salvation

Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

Matt. 7:21 - all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for “therefore” is “dia toutos” which means “through this”) blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus’ grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won’t cast out. But it’s a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.

John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.

John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. This “drawing” is an ongoing process.

John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).

Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.

Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus. Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God’s holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.


#14

[quote=Valtiel]“Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord UPHOLDETH HIM WITH HIS HAND.” (Ps. 37:24)

Though he fall -is a reference to a believer who has committed a sin.

he shall not be utterly cast down - means that the sinning believer has not lost his salvation.

Why does the sinning believer not lose his salvation?

Because God upholds the sinning believer with His hand.
[/quote]

As Maria pointed out earlier, this chapter is contrasting the righteous (saved) from the wicked (unsaved). I think it is also essential to point out that “falling” (venial sins) is much different from sins which would cut us off from God (mortal sins). God indeed has us by the hand and when we fall, He protects us from being hurled headlong.

But it is possible to reject God let go of His hand. Just 3 verses after the one you quote, it says, “Depart from evil, and do good, so you will remain forever.” (Ps. 37:27) This is a conditional statement. In order for us to remain with Him, we must depart from evil. If we don’t depart from evil, or if commence to practice evil, we do not remain with Him. In His kindness, we can always repent and restore that relationship. But without repentence, people are in a lost state.

It is so important to read scriptures in context. Just 3 verses beyond this quote provides added perspective! Any scripture verse should be taken in the context of the entire chapter at the very minimum.

I want to add: we are not saved by our works. We are saved by grace, as we freely accept His gift to us. But with that grace, He gives us the ability to change our life, to resist sin (especially serious sin), and to love others. Given this amazing gift, if we commit a serious sin (like murder for example) it essentially throws the gift of salvation back in God’s face. It is essentially a rejection of Him. The New Testament is FILLED with discussion on the conditional nature of our salvation. We do have the ability to reject Him.

Read the whole book of 1 John in this light. It is a warning to Christians to REMAIN in Christ.


#15

To Me Once Saved Always Saved Is One Of The Most Demonic Teachings Ever Taught In The Protestant Faith.

Paul Said Work Out Your Salvation With Fear And Trembling, Do You Think He Went Around Telling People …hey Its Ok , Once Saved Always Saved , Just Believe In That Man. Hell No!! He Said Fear And Tremble Cause You Could Fall Back. And Be Sent To Hell.

What Did Christ Say? He Said Dont Fear Man But Fear God Who Can Cast You Into Hell!!

The Fear Of Hell Is Something Thats Really Not Thought About Much Anymore, But Something The Early Fathers Always Pondered. They Always Had Death Before Them And Strove With All There Heart To Obey In The Spirit Of Christ.

We Cant Mock God And He Means What He Says.


#16

I think it is very simple. All these verses seem to center around “Beilief” or faith. If one really believes, then one will do all that the word of god commanded.

So if one doesn’t eat the flesh and drink the blood, is one doing what Jesus said to do? - NO.

If one doesn’t confess his sins to another, is one doing what Jesus said to do? - NO.

If one doesn’t confess the blessed virgin, is one doing what the “Word of God” said to do? -NO.

If one doesn’t confess the “Church as the pillar and foundation of truth”, is one doing what the “Word of God” said to do? - NO.

ETC …

In light of all this how can anyone claim to be a believer, when they deny all this?

Eternal salvation is given to true believers, not people who pump a bunch of meaningless words out of their mouth.

I think most of us (me a sinner too) fall short of being a true believer. That is why there is re-conciliation. Our whole life is striving to become a “true believer”, and none, except the saints, accomplish this before their death.

Calvin


#17

The idea of once saved always saved was invented by Calvin, but his version was “always saved or always not saved”. This new version where you’re not saved and then you say the sinner’s prayer and become saved is a rather new invention of men.


#18

Actually now that I think about it, Catholics do believe in OSAS.

The argument just comes down to temporal boundaries. What I mean is that once we are in heaven, we have eternal life. So from that point of view we do consider ourselves always saved.

It is just a matter of getting to heaven (complete salvation) first.

Calvin


#19

[quote=Chipper]Actually now that I think about it, Catholics do believe in OSAS.

The argument just comes down to temporal boundaries. What I mean is that once we are in heaven, we have eternal life. So from that point of view we do consider ourselves always saved.

It is just a matter of getting to heaven (complete salvation) first.

[/quote]

Yes. It’s all a matter of saying when one is “saved.”:thumbsup:


#20

I was thinking about this general topic a bit yesterday, but I don’t know whether I can quite explain my line of thought… I should premise my comments by saying that not all Protestants believe in OSAS. A few denominations, like the Nazarene Church, specifcaly oppose it in their belief statement. Also, keep in mind that God’s knowledge of our future–i.e. whether we’re destined for heaven or hell–does not imply that our free will is lessened. Omniscience concerning our ultimate salvation does not affect our personal choice to accept or deny Christ.

Anyway, while most of us here would agree that accceptance of OSAS is impossible because it denies the exisitence (or significance) of our free will, Catholics are sometimes left with a degree of uncertainty when we’re asked “So, are you going to heaven?” Yet, I don’t think God wants us living in daily fear. While we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, I don’t see this as exactly a declaration that we can’t be reasonably certain of the direction we’re heading. I think the problem hinges on whether we’re talking in general or personal terms, and this is an important difference. If we’re talking about people in general, then we have to say that we can’t all necessarily know with 100% certainty where we’re going. We don’t believe in OSAS, and there are too many things which can go wrong with our Christian walk because of our free will. On the other hands, if we’re just talking about ourselves, I think there is a kind of personal certainty which gives us a degree of peace in our daily walk. If we believe in the mercy of God and honestly believe we are doing about the best we can with what we’re given, then it seems we can find peace and assurance that (unless we really make a mess of things), we are moving in the right direction. I think it also comes down to the quality of mercy we see from God in our daily lives–not to mention every page of the Bible.

I also would like to point out something else concerning being “born again” or “saved”. Myself and many Catholics believe a “second conversion” is necessary in order to be a true believer. Otherwise, the belief has not been accepted on a a personal level, and we’re just making the motions without meaning.

Just my wandering thougts for the day!


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.