Once Saved--Always Saved


#1

Challenge:

Some Christians hold to the so-called doctrine of “Once saved, always saved–eternal security.” Many of the Christians who believe that doctrine also tend to attack the Roman Catholic faith for what they think are traditions of men. Yet, Catholics **do **accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, which is the only foundation to being saved once and for all according to that doctrine.

So…

If accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is the only requirement, then what difference (in their eyes) does it make if we believe other teachings (the sacraments, Marian theology, Papal theology, etc.)?

Furthermore, since according to the “Once Saved, always saved” doctrine we cannot ever lose our salvation no matter what we do–then why would believers in OSAS care if people are Catholic? After all, if all it takes is accepting Jesus, and nothing at all can separate us from God once we have done that–then it really does not matter what we choose to follow–correct?


#2

I’ve often wondered this same thing. It appears you can draw a salvation matirix.

If Evangelical Protestants are 100% correct = Protestants/ Catholics saved. Rest of world doomed.

If Catholics are 100% correct = Catholics saved (if in sanctified grace, which most are not) Protestants and rest of the world have a good shot at it if either contrite in their repentance or in invincible ignorance.

If Some other Protestant groups are correct (oneness Pentecostal and some others who believe we must be submerged in Baptism) the vast majority of the world are doomed.

If Islam is 100% correct = Most of the world is saved but ALL Christians are doomed (because we believe in the Holy Trinity).

From a purley objective standpoint (i.e. a totally unbiased observer learning of religion for the first time). the odds are heavily stacked against all of us. It becomes obvious why people shun religion (IMO).


#3

[quote=TPJCatholic]Challenge:

Some Christians hold to the so-called doctrine of “Once saved, always saved–eternal security.” Many of the Christians who believe that doctrine also tend to attack the Roman Catholic faith for what they think are traditions of men. Yet, Catholics **do **accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, which is the only foundation to being saved once and for all according to that doctrine.

So…

If accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is the only requirement, then what difference (in their eyes) does it make if we believe other teachings (the sacraments, Marian theology, Papal theology, etc.)?

Furthermore, since according to the “Once Saved, always saved” doctrine we cannot ever lose our salvation no matter what we do–then why would believers in OSAS care if people are Catholic? After all, if all it takes is accepting Jesus, and nothing at all can separate us from God once we have done that–then it really does not matter what we choose to follow–correct?
[/quote]

…with fear and trembling, work out your salvation. How do the OSAS people explain that verse? :confused:


#4

Hello TPJ Catholic,

It is my opinion that it is some people’s evil desire to exalt themselves over others as God’s chosen few. To teach people how to get to heaven is good. To exalt yourself over others as God’s chosen few is evil. I think they are exalting themselves over Catholics who also believe that Jesus is our Savior.

It was the Pharisees who exalted themselves over others as God’s chosen in Jesus day. When Jesus pointed out that they were not God’s chosen few, secured in salvation, they killed him.

Please visit www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3325/10.htm

**NAB MAT 21:43 **

Therefore, I say to you,** the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.** ( The one who falls on this stone will be dashed to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.)"

When the chief priests and** the Pharisees heard his parables, they knew that he was speaking about them. And although they were attempting to arrest him,** they feared the crowds, for they regarded him as a prophet.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com


#5

For that matter, why do they read the Bible?

And, why do they pray?

And, why do they worship?

I believe that the OSAS mentality tends to lead to a moral relativism. If all you have to do is accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, then all the gloves are off and anything goes.


#6

Mark,

I agree…and I would add that it is strange that many of the supporters of OSAS will also stand strongly against abortion, homosexual activity, etc…which makes no sense because once a person is saved, nothing can take their salvation away…nothing.


#7

[quote=TPJCatholic]Mark,

I agree…and I would add that it is strange that many of the supporters of OSAS will also stand strongly against abortion, homosexual activity, etc…which makes no sense because once a person is saved, nothing can take their salvation away…nothing.
[/quote]

That’s because they werent’ really saved anyway, so you have to ‘re-save’ them. I guess that would be the protestant answer.


#8

[quote=TPJCatholic]Challenge:

Some Christians hold to the so-called doctrine of “Once saved, always saved–eternal security.” Many of the Christians who believe that doctrine also tend to attack the Roman Catholic faith for what they think are traditions of men. Yet, Catholics **do **accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, which is the only foundation to being saved once and for all according to that doctrine.

So…

If accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is the only requirement, then what difference (in their eyes) does it make if we believe other teachings (the sacraments, Marian theology, Papal theology, etc.)?

Furthermore, since according to the “Once Saved, always saved” doctrine we cannot ever lose our salvation no matter what we do–then why would believers in OSAS care if people are Catholic? After all, if all it takes is accepting Jesus, and nothing at all can separate us from God once we have done that–then it really does not matter what we choose to follow–correct?
[/quote]

Well, of course, many Protestants would say that a RC is in danger of trusting in themselves plus Christ to get them to heaven. In other words, the issue is not first Mary, sacraments, etc, but in what or in whom are you trusting for your salvation. If you are trusting in any work of righteousness (effort of your own) to get you there, then you are not truly trusting in Christ.

So, why do some Protestants think that is is so necessary to expose the error of Catholicism? Because the doctrines that the institution teaches is inherently false and detrimental to salvation. Same thing as legalistic Protestants.

Does this mean that Catholics and legalistic Protestant are not saved? Not necessarily, for they may be truly trusting in Christ and calling on His mercy to save them. God will sometimes save people in spite of their false understanding, not because of it.

That is what some, not all, Protestants would say.

Michael


#9

But the OSAS doctrine merely states that one has to accept Jesus into their lives as their Lord and Savior–and really mean it…(whatever “really mean it” means).


#10

[quote=TPJCatholic]Challenge:

Some Christians hold to the so-called doctrine of “Once saved, always saved–eternal security.” Many of the Christians who believe that doctrine also tend to attack the Roman Catholic faith for what they think are traditions of men. Yet, Catholics **do **accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, which is the only foundation to being saved once and for all according to that doctrine.

So…

If accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is the only requirement, then what difference (in their eyes) does it make if we believe other teachings (the sacraments, Marian theology, Papal theology, etc.)?

Furthermore, since according to the “Once Saved, always saved” doctrine we cannot ever lose our salvation no matter what we do–then why would believers in OSAS care if people are Catholic? After all, if all it takes is accepting Jesus, and nothing at all can separate us from God once we have done that–then it really does not matter what we choose to follow–correct?
[/quote]


#11

Michael,

Are you saying that Catholicism adheres to a doctrine of salvation through works, or are you saying that some protestants believe that to be the case? :confused:


#12

michaelp,

Yet, the doctrine of OSAS is very simple…it is many times seen in altar calls across the nation where people simply accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior–nothing else required. So, if nothing else is required, then it makes no difference if one is Catholic.


#13

[quote=michaelp]Well, of course, many Protestants would say that a RC is in danger of trusting in themselves plus Christ to get them to heaven. In other words, the issue is not first Mary, sacraments, etc, but in what or in whom are you trusting for your salvation. If you are trusting in any work of righteousness (effort of your own) to get you there, then you are not truly trusting in Christ.

So, why do some Protestants think that is is so necessary to expose the error of Catholicism? Because the doctrines that the institution teaches is inherently false and detrimental to salvation. Same thing as legalistic Protestants.

Does this mean that Catholics and legalistic Protestant are not saved? Not necessarily, for they may be truly trusting in Christ and calling on His mercy to save them. God will sometimes save people in spite of their false understanding, not because of it.

That is what some, not all, Protestants would say.

Michael
[/quote]

Hi Michael, can you respond to my question to you from this post about the scrolls in Revelation from which all the dead will be judged upon what they have done?

Thanks! :slight_smile:

Eric


#14

I would love to hear from protestants who believe this doctrine.
I agree, why do any of the things that Christians do if all they have to do is say "Jesus, I am a sinner. I ask you to come into my heart as my personal Lord and Savior."or something to that effect.

What I find fascinating is that Catholics are ridiculed by protestants because we do not claim to know if we are indeed saved. They believe that once you are saved, you are good to go. But then when you ask them about people who were saved and have then gone on to commit serious sin and even to commit blashemy, they then claim that those people were not really saved.

So then I ask, then how do you know if you are really saved?

I believe that no one knows the true heart of men, not even one’s own. That is why we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. For if it true that Jesus’s death and resurrection was all that is necessary for all to be saved, then why do we need the church, the Bible, faith or any of that. We would all just go to heaven regardless of what we believe, do or think.

Now don’t get me wrong all of you prostestants that bristle at the mere mention that Jesus’s death and resurrection is not sufficient. I did not say that, for His death did indeed open the gates of heaven. I mean that we must accept this gift. If I hold out my hand to help someone, it is freely given, the help is there if accepted. However, if that person does not accept my hand, does not act on that offer then they get no benefit from it. So, while it is true that Jesus died for our salvation, we must reach out and take hold of His outstretched hand.

So then we get to the question, “What is our part of the convenant?” Is it faith alone, or must we in fact act upon this faith?
And if we must act upon this faith, how then is that done?

As I Catholic, I believe it is done through those Commandments that Jesus said were the most important. We must love God with all our heart, mind and body. We must love our neighbor as ourselves. By following these, I believe I have the best chance to be saved but I won’t know until the day I stand before Him.


#15

[quote=TPJCatholic]Yet, the doctrine of OSAS is very simple…it is many times seen in altar calls across the nation where people simply accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior–nothing else required. So, if nothing else is required, then it makes no difference if one is Catholic.
[/quote]

Yes, OSAS is held by many people errantly. But those of us in the reformed camp believe something quite different called Perseverance of the Saints, or Preservation of the Saints.

There are many Biblical passages which support it, it basically says that those who have been chosen by the Father for eternal life can never lose their salvation. Now there are some who have a false conversion and seem to be Christians but then fall away, but the Bible says those people were never saved in the first place.

No one can know whether or not they will be glorified in heaven.

After all, Scripture tells us of many people who would have thought they were going to heaven, only to “fall away”:

“They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.”
–1 John 2:19

Those who leave God, never belonged to Him. Some will even do great things for God, calling on his name:

"Not everyone who says to me,‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ "
–Matt 7:21-23

These false Christians are the ones Jesus spoke of when he talked about the farmer sowing seed on the rocky places in Matthew 13:

"Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. "
–Matthew 13:5-6

Later, Jesus explains what this means:

“The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.”
–Matthew 13:20-21

The truth is, one can be a false Christian who is deceived into thinking they will persevere unto salvation.

You cannot know without a doubt, infallibly, whether or not you will be glorified when you die. You can have sufficient assurance that if you continue on the path, you are saved. This is the historic Protestant position.

Jesus, however, promises to be faithful to those who are drawn to him by the Father. True believers will be raised up on the last day and will persevere until the end. (John 6:36-45, John 10:25-29).

God bless,
c0ach


#16

**Predestination = John Calvin :frowning: **


#17

[quote=Mickey]**Predestination = John Calvin :frowning: **
[/quote]

Actually Predestination = Bible. :slight_smile:


#18

[quote=c0achmcguirk]Actually Predestination = Bible. :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Your interpretation. :frowning:


#19

[quote=Mickey]Michael,

Are you saying that Catholicism adheres to a doctrine of salvation through works, or are you saying that some protestants believe that to be the case? :confused:
[/quote]

Hello Mickey,

I think that it is more clear to say

Catholics believe the only way to heaven is through the saving grace of Jesus Christ, the reason people go to heaven is because they love God and love for God is accomplished through free from the will of God obedience to the will of God.

Where the Protestant theology fails is that it denies human free willed gifts of love and obedience to God that Jesus called for in order to go to heaven. Protestant theology fails to acknowledge that man posesses post baptism free willed choices to love or hate God through obedience or disobedience to God which Jesus teaches us effects whether or not we go to heaven.

NAB MAT 25:41

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

NAB MAT 19:16

“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

NAB JOH 14:23
Jesus answered:
Anyone who loves me will be true to my word, and my Father will love him; we will come to him and make our dwelling place with him. He who does not love me does not keep my words. Yet the word you hear is not mine; it comes from the Father who sent me.

NAB SIR 15:11 Man’s Free Will.

Say not: “It was God’s doing that I fell away”; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: “It was he who set me astray”; for he has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com


#20

coachmc,

Regardless whether or not a person who falls away was ever with God, a person who accepts OSAS “thinks” they are with God. With such a doctrine, how can that person ever know they are not with God?


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