Can someone please provide me with a list of versus that disprove once saved always saved.
Galatians 5:4: 'You are separated from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by Law, you have fallen from grace."
Luke 8:13. “But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.”
Matthew 10:22 “But he who endures to the end will be saved.”
Colossians 1:21-23: “And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and irreproachable in His sight,- if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel which you heard.”
Swiped from here: orlutheran.com/html/once.html
Take the following scriptures into consideration.
Mt 7:21(16-23), Mt 24:13, Rom 11:22 (16-24), Phil 2:12 (12-19), 1 Cor 4:4 (1-5), 1 Cor 9:27, 1 Cor 10:11-12, Gal 5:4 (1-6), 2 Tim 2:11-13, Heb 6:4-6, Heb 10:26-27, 2 Pet 2:20-21
Also, have a read here:
“With regard to despair, every appetitive movement that is conformed to a false intellect, is evil in itself and sinful. Now presumption is an appetitive movement, since it denotes an inordinate hope. Moreover it is conformed to a false intellect, just as despair is: for just as it is false that God does not pardon the repentant, or that He does not turn sinners to repentance, so is it false that He grants forgiveness to those who persevere in their sins, and that He gives glory to those who cease from good works: and it is to this estimate that the movement of presumption is conformed.” - St. Thomas Aquinas (“Summa Theologica” 13th century A.D.)
This saying just doesn’t make sense.
Re OSAS Adamski.
Sometimes it is helpful to look at the alleged verses that purport to teach OSAS. Then consider the verses that warn against OSAS.
I’ll try to provide some support for this all later.
Using common sense will tell a person that once saved always saved is not true. For example if a person says the “I’m saved” prayer then goes out and murders another is that not a sin? Hasn’t that person committed a sin that requires the confession of sin and asking for forgiveness? We are all sinners and we must always confess our new sins as they occur. Otherwise we are not accountable for our sinful actions.
James 2: 14-24
Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
It is not sufficient just to declare yourself for Christ in ‘once saved, always saved’.
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart".
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
**And in Jesus’ own words:
"It is not those who call me ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my father in heaven.”
In Matthew 25 verses 31-46, Jesus makes clear that He judges souls by their practical acts of kindness, which arise out of faith and charity:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
My wife believes in once saved always saved along with all of her friends
I ask her if “I excepted jesus into my heart” her language and then murdered her would I go to heaven
She said yes “but I would get less crowns in heaven”
This is why I left being an evangelical and am catholic
I can say when I was around this I saw much destruction in people’s lives
See how Catholics proclaim we are saved:
By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)
By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)
By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)
By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)
By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)
By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)
By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)
By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)
By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)
By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)
By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)
By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)
By our words (Matt 12:37)
By enduring to the end (Matt.24:13)
Thank you, PRmerger.
OSAS or Once Saved Always Saved (AKA Eternal Security with minor variations) is a sophisticated denial of Scripture.
Adamski, I am going to affirm your point (that the tradition of “Once Saved, Always Saved” is false), by looking at the “Scriptural antonym”. I will use the NIV as many OSAS folks use the NIV.
Some televangelists like to point to Romans 8:1 thinking that it really affirms OSAS and say:
ROMANS 8:1 (NIV) 1 Therefore, there is now **no ****condemnation **for those who are in Christ Jesus, . . .
But Catholics affirm this verse (Catholics affirm ALL the verses).
We are not going to say there IS CONDEMNATION for people who are in Christ Jesus.
Because there isn’t any condemnation for those IN CHRIST Jesus!
But Catholics DO SAY you’ve got to REMAIN in Christ Jesus. And if you do NOT REMAIN in Christ Jesus, this verse doesn’t apply to you and then there IS condemnation (for those NOT in Christ Jesus).
I will quote an excerpt from our local Bible study in the next post to show that . . .
*]Someone may freely choose to NOT REMAIN IN Jesus.
*]What occurs if they freely choose to NOT REMAIN IN Jesus (unless of course they repent).
*]Jesus’ warnings to those who choose not to REMAIN IN Jesus.
More warnings against OSAS
Listen to Jesus’ warnings to those who are IN Him (using the NIV).
JOHN 15:1-2 1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
Notice you can be IN-Jesus, but if you don’t bear fruit, you will be CUT OFF from Christ!
Calvinist: Well that merely means backsliding. I would still be saved.
Answer: No. Notice the FATHER cuts off branches that are IN JESUS that don’t bear fruit!
Q: Maybe that just means “backsliding”? Or maybe he was never “in Jesus.”
A: That’s not what it says or implies! But let’s read on. Jesus is addressing people who are “already clean.”
JOHN 15:3 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
Calvinist: Well just because the guy is “clean” doesn’t mean he’s in Jesus.
Answer: Oh yes it does. Jesus says so.
JOHN 15:3-4 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain IN ME, and I will remain in you.
Notice he is IN Jesus!
But . . . . he must REMAIN IN Jesus!
JOHN 15:3-5 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
Why would Jesus be telling us to REMAIN in him?
How can we REMAIN “in Jesus” if we were never “in Jesus” in the first place?
Because he’s telling this to people who are “IN JESUS” in the first place.
Jesus doesn’t say: “they were NEVER in me in the first place”!
Jesus says these people ARE IN Him!
Q: This means we are just “backsliding,” then we would get to Heaven anyway right?
A: Wrong. Let’s listen to what Jesus says about this. Please listen to Jesus!
JOHN 15:6a 6 If anyone does not remain in me . . . .
Notice you can choose to “not remain in (Jesus) me!”
But look at the consequences of this choice to not remain in Jesus!
Does Jesus say this . . . . ?
phantom verse 15:6??? 6 If anyone does not remain in me,
he is like a branch that withers and loses crowns; such slightly withered branches are still in me though because once they are IN ME, they can never be thrown aside and burned, but rather they will remain in me anyway.
Is this what our Lord Jesus says? NO!
Now let’s look at what is REALLY in Scripture.
JOHN 15:6 6 If anyone does not remain in me,
he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers;
such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Does Jesus use this imagery (of being “thrown into the fire” where they “wither” and “burn”) to tell someone he is headed for Heaven??
No! It doesn’t fit the context.
Our Lord and Savior Jesus is solemnly warning them (and us), that if they choose to not REMAIN in Him (notice you are IN Jesus, but you’ve got to REMAIN in Him and you can choose not to do so), they will condemn themselves to Hell.
If we DON’T REMAIN “IN JESUS” we will be cast aside and BURNED!
*]Does being “In Jesus” sound like someone who was never in Jesus in the first place? No!
*]Does this sound like we can’t walk away? No!
*]Does this sound like someone who is merely backsliding? No!
*]Does this sound like someone who is saved anyway? No!
*]Does this sound like merely “losing crowns”?? No!
If someone who’s in Jesus walks away and doesn’t come back are they saved anyway?
NO! They will be cast aside (as they are no longer in the vine-they are no longer in Jesus) and burned!
The people being warned here about being cast aside and burned, are people who are “in Jesus!” This is a warning to Christians!
John 15:1-6 does not teach or suggest OSAS (nor does any verse in the Bible).
The Holy Spirit via John 15:1-6 specifically refutes the false doctrine of the OSAS tradition of men that makes void God’s word.
Why? This is not a good approach to Scripture. Don’t play by their game (the Baptists or whoever it is that you are arguing with).
The verses posted do indeed refute the absurd notion that once a person is saved they are “always saved”. But, I would caution you in this regard. You don’t have to come up with a giant list of verses to combat another person’s giant list of verses. The Catholic Church does not decide what to believe on the basis of proof texting, but rather on the basis of sacred tradition which has absolutely never taught anything other than the fact that a person can lose sanctifying grace through mortal sin.
Here is another verse the OSAS folks will erroneously try use to try to assert the OSAS tradition.
JOHN 10:28-29 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
Aside from the fact that this verse does not say, nobody can choose to “jump out” of the Father’s hand, it is not referring to the OSAS doctrine. Why?
All this verse means is that “the elect” will come to God in Heaven by the hand of God or by God’s grace.
JOHN 10:28-29 concerns “The Elect”.
*]All “The Elect” ARE “Born Again”
*]But NOT all people who have been “Born Again” are of “The Elect” (some of them fall away from grace) [/LIST]
“The elect” are the people who eventually go to Heaven. They may go straight to Heaven or they may still be in need of purification or purgation on their way to Heaven.
The CCC just matter-of-factly talks about this . . .
CCC 1031a The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. . . .
And ALL the people who get to Heaven were brought there by God’s grace, by the hand of God.
The OSAS people will falsely assert, “Well if you have Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior you are born again, and thus you are automatically one of the elect!”
They cannot back this up from Scripture.
Here is what Scripture REALLY teaches about people who knew Jesus as “Lord and Savior”:
2nd PETER 2:20-21 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by
knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end then they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, then to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
Notice St. Peter is talking about people who KNEW Jesus in the context of “Lord and Savior”. They had a personal relationship with Jesus or they were “knowing” Jesus. That “knowing” is an intimate term. They knew Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. Yet they get entangled in the world and what?
NOT 2nd PETER 2:20-21 (Phantom Verse) If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in the world, they will go to Heaven anyway, because they knew Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior and could not lose their salvation.
Is THAT what 2nd Peter 2:20-21 says? No!
Here again is what it really says:
2nd PETER 2:20-21 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end then they were at the beginning. 21** It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness**, then to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
These are people who are “born again” in some sense (we could talk about what THAT means that on a different thread) and these people KNEW Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Yet they were not of the elect! Why? Because they did NOT persevere in cooperating with God’s grace that’s why.
That is WHY St. Peter could state a chapter earlier:
2nd PETER 1:5-11 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10 Therefore, my brother, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall.
John 10:28-29 is referring to people who will persevere in the faith.
That’s WHY John 10:27 is NOT
**NOT JOHN 10:27 (Phantom Verse) ** 27 My sheep listened to my voice at one time at an altar call; they signed the little card that the preacher gave them too. I know them, and even if they commit murder, adultery, fornication, idolatry, or anything else, they will be saved anyway no matter what.
Or they were never really saved in the first place (but what “assurance” is that then?).
Bold and underline of Bible verses cited and CCC mine.
John 10:27 which puts John 10:28-29 in a contextual perspective really says this:
JOHN 10:27 (NIV) 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them,
and they follow me.
Notice Jesus’ sheep listen to (or “hear”) His voice.
The Greek word for “hear” in this case is “akouo”. This means to “hear” in an ongoing sense. They persevere!
Jesus says in verse 27, “I know them . . .”
The Greek word for “know” here is “ginosko”.
This also suggests an ongoing relationship and not merely a one-time acceptance (at a stadium, campfire, rally, crusade, or wherever).
Jesus points out about His sheep that . . . “they follow me.”
Not “they followed me at one moment.”
This implies an ongoing following or an accompaniment, not merely a moment of acceptance.
The Greek word that St. John uses for “follow” is “akoloutheo”.
“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.” (Revelation 21:7)
Compare the above to the next verse:
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)
What’s the practical application of all these last two posts of mine when approached by an OSAS follower?
Here is an example (you don’t need to memorize verses if you have an idea of where they are as then you can just go to them in your Bible if you are challenged) . . .
I had a woman at work (an ex-Catholic) years ago once ask me if I believe God was strong enough to hold believers in His hand if He says He will.
I knew the “set-up” was coming and she was referring to John 10 and was about to pounce with it on the OSAS issue.
Instead of going through all the items I said on my last couple of posts (which I put here in case anyone reading this needed more info.) and I could not have memorized anyway, I just said to her (paraphrasing John 15):
Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. We must REMAIN IN JESUS otherwise we will be cast aside and burned.
Then affirming John 10 I said:
The Father DOES hold all Christians in His hand but we can choose to jump out of that hand too.
So she said:
So you don’t think that God is strong enough to hold Christians.
No. That’s not what I said.
I said Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. We must REMAIN IN JESUS otherwise we will be cast aside and burned.
She knew that was a quote from John 15 (and I knew she knew that too). I also used the NIV translation wording because now most OSAS people use that translation and I knew this Evangelical Protestant would be familiar with it.
So she misquoted my words another way and I replied:
No. That’s not what I said.
I said Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. We must REMAIN IN JESUS otherwise we will be cast aside and burned.
Do YOU affirm Jesus is the vine and we are the branches and IF we do NOT REMAIN IN JESUS (and by the way notice you can choose to NOT remain IN JESUS) they will be cast aside and burned?
She said she did not affirm this and it was my “interpretation”. Yet I offered little commentary.
This turned out to be helpful I think for two reasons.
She was clearly flustered by this encounter and I never had to put up with this type of pushy encounter from her again.
She did ask many times after that, “Say what does the Catholic Church teach about . . . . such and such a doctrine?” So it helped give this poor ex-Catholic Evangelical some doctrinal mooring based on Catholicism.
Although this woman never became Catholic her anti-Catholicism (which was open and quite rabid at one point) was later never on display again (at least that I saw).
And “no” she wasn’t interested in me. She is waaaay older than I am and also I am veeeeery married.
John 8:36 if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. :signofcross:
Doesn’t mean you still won’t be here in the valley of the shadow though. Thus the ongoing following of the way of the Cross.
Course then, well, it never hurts to frequently stop by the Catholic Latin Rite Church for the Sacraments as Jesus gave them in love to His Church, and for “everyone”.
Your invited! :blessyou:
I was always taught that to presume God’s mercy was a sin…