Once Saved Always Saved...


#1

As a catholic, I’d like to know what scripture verses you would use as a response to the Once Saved Always Saved position?

Off the bat I can think of one - Mt 19:17

Thanks for your help.


#2

Christ Himself being God was tempted by the devil. Being as fully united to Christ as possible in our humanity and sharing in His Divinity through Baptism should expect no less than to be tempted to sin and turn away from God.

St. Paul writes about this in Hebrews, Corinthians as well as Philipians See Phil 3:12-14 and 1 Cor 9:27.


#3

[quote=matthew1624]As a catholic, I’d like to know what scripture verses you would use as a response to the Once Saved Always Saved position? Off the bat I can think of one - Mt 19:17

Thanks for your help.
[/quote]

Try some of these:

1 Cor 4:3-5 But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself.
4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.

2Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Heb 10:26-27

26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Matt 24:13

[quote] 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1 Cor 9:27

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Cor 10:12-13

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Heb 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Rom. 11:17-24
"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off"
‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21).“
I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

Jeremiah expressed it, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?” (Jer. 17:9).

Jesus told us, there are those who “believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13).

Peace in Christ…Salmon
[/quote]


#4

Gary Hogue has posted a quiz:

Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24 "If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.

“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

Question:

If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns back to his sins, will he still live?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see those verses

1 Corinthians 11:32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

Question:

Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Extra credit:

According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: “To prevent us from being ___________ with the world”)

2 Timothy 2:12 If we disown him, he will also disown us.

Question:

If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Revelation 22:14, 19

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

Question:

If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

1 Timothy 3:6

“[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.”

Question:

Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

2 Peter 2:20-21

“For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Bonus Essay Question:

If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, “It would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness”?

Galatians 5:19-20

“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Question:

If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the kingdom of God?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Romans 11:22

“Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Question:

If a Christian does not continue in God’s kindness, will he be cut off?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

1 Corinthians 15:2

“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain.”

Question:

If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be said of him that he believed for nothing?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Hebrews 4:1, 11

“Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.”

Question:

If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter God’s rest?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse
The once saved,always saved,quiz…from Gary Hoge’s A Protestant’s Guide to the Catholic Church.

Peace in Christ…Salmon


#5

Here’s a little desert, just in case you need more:

II Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

James 5:19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins

Revelation 3;5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

Apparently your name can be removed from the book of life after it has already been written there. Looks like Moses thought the same thing.

Exodus 32:32Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin–; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Eze. 33: 18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 19But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

Eze 18:24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Psalms 51:10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

I guess God has neglected to tell people about once saved always saved in the New and in the Old Testament.

Peace in Christ…Salmon


#6

Quasimodo just reminded me off-line that a very powerful passage regarding OSAS is found in the parable regarding the reinstitution of debt owed by the forgiven debtor who fails to forgive the debts owed by those under him. See Matt 18:23-35 for more details.

Peace in Christ…Salmon


#7

Wow…that’s a pretty impressive “quiz” there, Salmon- Good work. I’m sure the results would be rather interesting if I were to give that quiz to some of my friends…


#8

When in doubt, I like to turn to the Deuterocanonical book of Ben Sirach. Everyone knows the New Testament passages that refute OSAS, I like these simply because they are not in the Protestant bibles.

Sirach 5: 5-6 "Of forgiveness be not overconfident, adding sin upon sin. Say not, “Great is His mercy, my many sins he will forgive.”

But my favorite New Testament passage is Matthew 7:21, “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of the Father.”


#9

[quote=SwissGuard]Wow…that’s a pretty impressive “quiz” there, Salmon- Good work. I’m sure the results would be rather interesting if I were to give that quiz to some of my friends…
[/quote]

Thanks, but I didn’t do any of the work. Gary Hoge’s quiz can be found at:
Gary’s Quiz

His home page (including a link to his conversion story) can be found at Catholic Outlook:

Gary Hoge’s Homepage

Peace in Christ…Salmon


#10

Check out the “Once-Saved-Always-Saved” link on this page:
catholicoutlook.com/just.html. I found the information/verses here to be helpful.


#11

Again, WOW! Ask it shall be given unto you… This is exactly what I was looking for. This is an awesome forum.

Keep em’ coming if you have more…

God Bless :thumbsup:


#12

If you end up debating the interpretation of passages, as frequently happens and takes a great deal of time, I try to keep it real simple:

I use the story of the Vine and the branches (Romans?..I don’t have my Bible with me). It is clear Jesus is the Vine. So who are the branches? Those who have been baptized, since that is when we become members of the body of Christ.

So, the branches are those people who “have been saved” in OSAS theory. But we hear that branches can be removed from the Vine and thrown into the fire.

I then ask the question, How can this be explained by the OSAS theory? If OSAS is true, then the branches could never be removed.

…there’s my two cents worth.


#13

Peter warns us that false prophets and teachers would arise among the people (2 Peter 2:1). What makes this passage interesting is that these “false prophets” were described as having been “bought” by Christ.

This is language that Scripture uses to describe what happens when we become children of God. “But when the time had fully come, God sent forth His Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem [the Greek literally reads “to buy up”] those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’ So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir” (Galatians 4:4-7). Only regenerate believers are referred to as having been “bought” or “purchased” by God (Acts 20:28; 1Corinthians 6:20; 7:23). This should help you to establish to non-Catholics that salvation is not a one-time sure thing.

Not only are these teachers referred to as “false prophets,” but to make matters worse for those that believe in eternal security, they are explicitly said to be “bringing swift destruction on themselves.” To top it off, Peter adds: “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire” (2Peters 2:20-22). These former believers turned false prophets not only were bought by Christ but also knew Christ as “Lord and Savior”!


#14

Sorry, I didn’t read all the posts, so if I repeat, I apologize. But I have discussed this at length with a Protestant brother so I think I have a lot.

Mt 24:13, 25:31-46
Rom 11:20-23
Heb 10:26-29
2 Pet 2:20-21
Mt 7:21-23
Jn 15:4-10 (This one reminds me of John 6- very repetitive because Jesus knew it would be controversial…just my speculation)
Hos 12:7
Lk 14:34
2 Tim 2:11-12, 3:14, 4:7b-8a
Phil 2:12
Jude 21
1 Cor 7:20
Eph 5:5
Jn 3:5
Mt 12:30-31
and of course, Jas 2:14-26

I’m sorry, I’m sure I repeated some, but I hope it helps.

jp2fan


#15

The Eternal Security, Once Saved-Always Saved thing seems to me to be a perfect illustration of people whistling past the graveyard pretending not to be scared.

If fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, no fear of the Lord must be the beginning of foolishness.

Others have given you the relevant scripture passages.


#16

One note on Mt 7:21- a well-trained Protestant will refer you to Jn 6:40. I was TOTALLY stumped when this happened to me, but I later found 1 Thes 5:3. Just in case this happens to you, because I thought this was one of the best verses for the argument, and he crushed it for me lol.

jp2fan


#17
  • As a catholic, I’d like to know what scripture verses you would use as a response to the Once Saved Always Saved position?*

What flavor of OSAS are you trying to argue against? There are at least two flavors, and in their extreme versions, they occupy opposite ends of a spectrum. OSAS comes in both the “Calvinist” and the “Arminian” flavors (which neither Calvin nor Arminius would recognize or accept).

At one end of the spectrum is the “Calvinist” flavor of OSAS, which is build upon a foundation of heretical ideas concerning free will and “irresistible” grace. The Calvinist flavor of OSAS could be called, “Once Elect, Always Elect”. In this system, limited free will might be admitted to exist, but it is seen as something bad. If limited free will is even admitted, then irresistible grace is seen as a thing that corrodes away free will until the regenerated elect becomes a holy meat robot incapable of committing sin.

“Calvinist” OSAS does not argue that freedom in Christ is the freedom to commit sin with the assurance of salvation. If a Christian is living a depraved and immoral life, he is said to have never have been saved in the first place.

At the other extreme of the spectrum of OSAS belief lies the “Arminian” flavor. In this system, free will is not denied as it is in the Calvinist system. “Arminian” OSAS is the heresy of antinomianism as put forth by Johannes Agricola. This is the flavor of OSAS that one typically finds among the Southern Baptists and the nondenominational fundamentalists. It is asserted that once a man is “saved” that there is no sin that a “saved” man could commit that could make him lose his salvation. The “saved” man thus does not need to enter a relationship with Jesus as his Lord to enter heaven, since he possesses an unbreakable contract with God that gives him a license to commit any sin he feels like committing. Hardcore antinomians will insist that a “saved” man could die as an ** unrepentant** backslid, child molesting, Satan worshipping, serial killer that spent his last breath uttering blasphemies against the Holy Spirit – and still have the “assurance of salvation”. A Christian Satan worshipper is not necessarily an oxymoron in the antinomian system of OSAS.

When arguing against “Calvinist” OSAS, keep the argument focused on the question of free will. Use the scriptures that refute the claim that the “elect” cannot commit sin.

When arguing against the antinomian flavor of OSAS, keep the argument focused on the necessity of moral behavior for a Christian and the necessity of the Lordship of Jesus for a Christian.

By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
1Tim. 1:19-20

There is sin which is mortal … there is sin which is not mortal.
1John 5:16-17


#18

The OSAS position was of the Southern Baptist, Non-denominational flavor. Quite simply, I was told that they could murder, commit adultery, etc. without having any consequence on their salvation. This particular person used David as an example.

Scott Hahn once quoted a philosopher by the name of William James who said, “I would sin like David, if only I could repent like David.”


#19

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven” (Matt 7:21). Scripture shows that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus says, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matthew 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). So basically, one who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to Heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to Hell.


#20

Matt1624

The OSAS position was of the Southern Baptist, Non-denominational flavor. Quite simply, I was told that they could murder, commit adultery, etc. without having any consequence on their salvation.

Ahh … hardcore antinomian OSAS – the “saved” man can become the next Ted Bundy if he wishes. He can die unrepentant for his murder spree with the assurance that he will go straight to heaven after he is shot to death in a shootout with the police. Sheesh! How can anyone read the Bible and believe this is the Gospel?

Antinomian OSAS asserts that after one is “saved”, that one need never again repent of mortal sin in order to enter heaven. If a boy gets “saved” as a nine-year-old, he can supposedly backslide into total depravity as an adult with his assurance of salvation in the bag. The nine-year-old boy’s “sinner’s prayer” supposedly remits all his future sins, even the mortal sins that he commits as an unrepentant adult Satan worshipper (or unrepentant homicidal rapist, or unrepentant Nazi death camp sadist, or …)

The whole of the first epistle of John is just the ticket for laying waste to this nonsense. The Apostle John wrote this epistle in response to the antinomian Docetists that were plaguing the early Christian communities. John says that these antinomian Docetae are infested with the spirit of antichrist, which most certainly is the spirit behind the lie that Jesus died on the cross to give Christians the freedom to commit sin with impunity.

Antinomians (and most Protestants in general) deny the distinction between mortal and venial sin, which will be germane to the subject of how one loses sanctification and eternal life through unrepented sin. The fifth chapter of John’s first epistle clearly makes the distinction between mortal sin and sin that is not mortal (venial sin):

There is sin which is mortal … there is sin which is not mortal.
1 John 5:16-17 RSV

(the same verses in the KJV) : “There is a sin unto death … and there is a sin not unto death.”

As you now know, those who believe in the antinomian flavor of OSAS will insist that a “saved” man can live as a hate filled unrepentant murder and still have eternal live abiding within his soul. John explicitly rejects that blasphemy in his first epistle:

He who does not love abides in death. Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:14-15

By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother.
1 John 3:10


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