One God vs One God?


#1

Catholics and Christians a like believe in the Trinity which is One god in three persons or natures.

Mormons teach 3 distinct Gods unified together in one purpose, which Catholics and Christians refer to as a Triad.

I have noticed while talking to Mormons that when I mention Trinity vs Triad they have no collection what I am talking about.

Because they have no teaching on the difference they see it as that they are worshipping the same God, bc they refer to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Now I believe in the Trinity, that God the Father, Jesus Christ His begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit are trully one God in three persons.

Now is it possible that God is one and many all the same time?
Is it possible that God is one and seperate at the same time?
One God in three persons, is a person one in itself? And if you have three persons then arent we trully refering to three seperate persons and with the Trinity belief at the same time praising one God.

This is trully a hard concept to understand in this mortal 3d world, but if you study meta physics you will better comprehend how God works.

I believe that the Mormon definition is just an elementry theological answer on how to explain the Father, Son and Holy Ghost or Spirit.


#2

LDS is pretty consistent in teaching that they are 3 completely individual entities who are one in purpose only. They believe that Jesus is literally the son of God and that we are his literal brothers and sisters.

They are not very clear on what they believe about the Holy Ghost but they have ample material that esxplains their views on God the Father and Jesus Christ.


#3

[quote=Reid]I believe that the Mormon definition is just an elementry theological answer on how to explain the Father, Son and Holy Ghost or Spirit.
[/quote]

I think there is certainly some truth to this. LDS theology is not as sophisticated as Catholic (and those born of the Catholic Church) theology.

Also, almost all folks who do not call themselves Trinitarians see Trinitarians as modalists. Quite simply LDS and JWs seldom understand the Trinity well enough to distinguish it from modalism or something that they might classify (uncharitably) as either a three-headed monster or a schizophrenic God.

In addition to this, I would suggest that LDS removed themselves from non-LDS Christians both physically (moving to Utah) and theologically. They emphasized components of LDS theology in order to demonstrate our distinctness. This is fine, but it resulted in the neglecting of other components of our beliefs that are demanded by our scripture (most of which we share with you).

So, God is three and God is one. Most LDS scholars are pointing to our structure using the term “social Trinity.” This is different from what most Catholics and non-Catholic/non-LDS Christians speak of as the Trinity, but it does have solid advocates who are Protestant (Cornelius Plantinga – who is the author of the term) and Catholic (Catherine LaCugna). There are many others too.

In order to separate radically with LDS concerning the Trinity, I would think a definition of being-ness and person-ness would be in order. Emerging from Nicea, the term Homoousain was quite acceptable to LDS. It was after the sixty years of debating that Homoousain became a one-being-ness that is generally unacceptable to LDS. That being said, anyone who says that there is a certain unity of God (which LDS do say) cannot be wholly outside of orthodoxy until one-being-ness is rigidly defined.

In addition to this, the perception of the Trinity within the average Catholic and average Protestant is not sufficiently sophisticated such that most of them when explaining what they believe will define their beliefs in the region between modalism and tritheism. The Catholic who communes with Rome can be said to account for his ignorance through communion with God’s authority. The Protestant however must stand alone. I would suggest that if God must be understood in a way closer to the Augustinian Trinity than LDS understand, that this will leave a large percentage (perhaps even a majority) of non-LDS Christians with a non-salvic understanding of God.

Charity, TOm


#4

I am going to steal from a This Rock article that made logical sense to me:

All persons are beings, but not all beings are persons. For example, you are one being and one person. But a dog is one being and zero persons. With regard to the Trinity, there is one being, which is God, yet there are there Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is not illogical. If one were to say that there is one God and three Gods, or one Person and three Persons—that would be illogical. But one Being and three Persons is not a contradiction.

I liked this analogy. A dog is a dog in essence yet not a person; I am a human in essence but only posses the person of Arieh; God is one in essence but triune in nature with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are Persons united in one Being. The Persons of the Trinity are not simply united in purpose or mission but are one in being.

My biggest problem with the LDS version of the Trinity (asside from the three gods stuff) is that they say that Jesus was created. John 1:1 absolutely crushes that idea.


#5

It’s funny I was thinking about how to explain the trinity when I woke up this morning (don’t ask me what kind of lifestyle leads to those questions first thing in the morning). And I was specifically thinking about how to explain the concept to some friends of mine who are Mormon (we have theological discussions quite frequently).

I was thinking about the basic Christian and Hebrew belief that God is omniprescient and omniscient and this answer kind of occured to me.

Yes, God can posess both a oneness and a plurality simultaneously, and if your concept of God is anything at all like the traditional Judeo/Christian concept of God, this fact is inescapable. We believe that when we pray, God hears each of our prayers individually. We believe that God responds to each and every one of us as an individual and not just as part of the human mob. God is with each and every one of us (in the form of the Holy Spirit usually) and operates in each of our lives in a unique way.

Yet, we are all walking around at the same time in different places. When one of is praying, it’s a safe bet that several million other people are praying at the exact same moment.

And God hears us all, each one of us as if he were listening to just our voice. Even before Jesus was born of this Earth and began his ministry in which he proclaimed he was both the son of God and that he was Lord (God), it was a necessary requirement of Hebrew faith to believe in a God who was capable of being both plural (able to deal with all people as individuals all the time) and singular (one and only one God).

Jesus’ revelation of God’s triune nature during his ministry on Earth does not really add any new capabilities to God’s repertoire. It is indeed possible for God to posess the traits of a singularity and a plurality at the same time, in fact, it seems almost like a requirement.

Perhaps I am missing something or oversimplifying (I am not a new Catholic, but I have only recently begun to really study the faith in earnest), but it seems to me that the idea of a divine trinity (having a single God that is three distinct persons) is not really that unusual a concept if you believe in the God of Abraham even if the trinity wasn’t spelled out in the revelations of his day. I’ve read statements from prophets of the early Mormon church that seem to imply that trinitarian dogma is confusing, but I fail to understand what’s so confusing about it once you accept some of the other aspects of God’s nature (as it has been revealed to us).

As far as being hard to understand in our mortal state, well, that’s why it’s called a “mystery” of faith isn’t it? Those things we can’t understand without the help of divine revelation fall under that category, right?


#6

[quote=Reid]Catholics and Christians a like believe in the Trinity which is One god in three persons or natures.
[/quote]

I hope you meant to say “Catholics and Protestants alike…”. Catholics ARE Christians and were the ONLY Christians for many centuries.

Protestants have attempted to hijack the term “Christian” and redefine it to mean “Protestant”, implying of course that Catholics are not Christians. Even some Catholics have fallen into this improper use of the word.
Grace to you,
Paul


#7

[quote=Reid]Catholics and Christians a like believe in the Trinity which is One god in three persons or natures.
[/quote]

Trinity belief is three distict Persons in one God, ONE NATURE. Not “three natures”

Joe


#8

Gen 1:26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.” 27 God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth and all their array were completed. 2 Since on the seventh day God was finished with the work he had been doing, he rested on the seventh day from all the work he had undertaken. 3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work he had done in creation. 4 Such is the story of the heavens and the earth at their creation. At the time when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens–

       7. the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.
     22 The LORD God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man,  23 the man said: "This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called 'woman,' for out of 'her man' this one has been taken." 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be…
14 And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

Question:
1 Is God in Gen. 1 the Father of Jesus and us all.
2 Is Lord God in Gen. 2:3, Jesus (the Word) before he was born.
3 In Gen. 1:27 does God make man after there likeness or image only (spiritual beings)?
4 In Gen. 2:7 did the Lord God complete the the work that was said by God in Gen. 1:26 for they would “made man after our likeness” of God (immortal physical being)?
5 Did God lie when he said “make man in our image, after our likeness” or were Adam and Eve created in there image and after there likeness?
6 If Adam and Eve were created as God said, is God a immortal physical being having a body of flesh and bone?
7 Dose the Lord God have a immortal body of flesh and bone in Gen. 2:3 or is he just a spirit for he has not been born as Jesus yet?
8 Can God and Lord God be the same being if one has a immortal body of flesh and bone and the other is just a spirit?
9 Is the Holy Ghost a spirit only or can all three do anything because they are all God?
10 Can they make a rock so big that they can not lift it?


#9

[quote=RCT]Gen 1:26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.” 27 God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth and all their array were completed. 2 Since on the seventh day God was finished with the work he had been doing, he rested on the seventh day from all the work he had undertaken. 3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work he had done in creation. 4 Such is the story of the heavens and the earth at their creation. At the time when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens–

       7. the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.
     22 The LORD God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man,  23 the man said: "This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called 'woman,' for out of 'her man' this one has been taken." 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be…
14 And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

Question:
1 Is God in Gen. 1 the Father of Jesus and us all.
2 Is Lord God in Gen. 2:3, Jesus (the Word) before he was born.
3 In Gen. 1:27 does God make man after there likeness or image only (spiritual beings)?
4 In Gen. 2:7 did the Lord God complete the the work that was said by God in Gen. 1:26 for they would “made man after our likeness” of God (immortal physical being)?
5 Did God lie when he said “make man in our image, after our likeness” or were Adam and Eve not created in there image and after there likeness?
6 If Adam and Eve were created as God said, is God a immortal physical being having a body of flesh and bone?
7 Dose the Lord God have a immortal body of flesh and bone in Gen. 2:3 or is he just a spirit for he has not been born as Jesus yet?
8 Can God and Lord God be the same being if one has a immortal body of flesh and bone and the other is just a spirit?
9 Is the Holy Ghost a spirit only or can all three do anything because they are all God?
10 Can they make a rock so big that they can not lift it?
[/quote]


#10

RCT, these sites (one being from the Catechism of the Catholic Church) may help you better understand what is meant by being created in the image of God:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p6.htm

catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd04118.htm

http://www.sjnohio.com/God’s%20Image.htm


#11

FCEGM
Yes I read the information the you lead me to.
God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one in nature or perpose but they are there s
Gen. 1:26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.” 27 God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.

I thought that the words “us, our” means that more then just God is involoved. If that is true then does the word man mean Adam only or mankind for in 27 “male and female he created them.”

Then would “in our image, after our likeness” include a woman too. “the glory as of the Father’s only Son” If God is the Father and Jesus is the son and was created in the divine image of his Father, then how was Eve created after the image and likeness of.

The question that is on the table, is, at this very moment is our Lord Jesus a spiritual being in heaven or a immortal being having a body of flesh and bone? If he is just a spirit his body of flesh and bone is dead. If that body that was in the tomb and he showed to his apostles after his resurrection was changed into somthing else other than an immortal body of flesh and bone I have not found it. I have found: 1 Cor. 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality. 54 And when this which is corruptible clothes itself with incorruptibility and this which is mortal clothes itself with immortality, then the word that is written shall come about: "Death is swallowed up in victory.


#12

I thought the question on the table was related to the trinity. Cathollics do believe that Christ had a body and still does have a body (having ascended into heaven after his resurrection from the tomb).

The question is: Is there one and only one God for all of creation and that one and only God exists as three distinct and separate persons who are all distinct from one another but still simultaneously one God? Not part of one God mind you, but each of them God, wholly and complete. Yet each one is incapable of existing without the other two who are also wholly and completely God, the one and only God.

Basically is there one God in three persons as Catholics believe? Or are the three persons “one in purpose” as LDS believes? As I understand it, that essentially makes them three separate entities and opens the door to a plurality of gods.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm#II seems a more appropriate link for this thread, and especially vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm#III particularly sections 253-256 which offer a nice summary or our trinitarian beliefs.


#13

RCT - The links that MEP has provided should help you better understand how the Catholic Church (and all of orthodox Christianity) responds to such questions as you have raised.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.