One Mediator


#1

I have a question; actually it is a three part question. If the Bible says that Jesus is our Great High Priest, and it does. Hebrews 4:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.** Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.**


Hebrews 7:23-28 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Why do we need priests to begin with? And why do we need to pray to anyone else when all we have to do is ask Jesus since we are to come boldly to the throne of grace?

Not only that, but if He ever lives to make intercession for us, then shouldn’t we just trust Him alone?


#2

cin.org/users/james/files/priest.htm


#3

Hebrews 4:14-16 takes up the theme that God is not distant from us. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds us that we have in Jesus, a high priest who is close to our sufferings, not distant. Here, the author of the letter contrasts the distance and power of the temple high priests as they related to the people, with Jesus, the new high priest, who is close to us and who beckons us to come close to him.

Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.


This is in reference to the priests of the Old Testament, and makes a contrast between the priests of the OT who made sacrifice for themselves, and then for the people. What the Jews did was a foreshadow of Christ who died once, but His sacrifice is extended to us through time in the Mass. Only a priest can say Mass.

See Malachi 1:11 for bible prophecy about the Mass, there are tons more, and

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/revelation_and_the_mass.html

Priesthood is 100% of the bible and 100% of the tradition taught by Jesus and the Apostles.

The Office of New Testament Priest

[/font]http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/ntpriest.htm

For starters, nobody HAS to pray to anyone else, whether they are on earth, or in heaven. But it is a valid practice that goes back to the earliest times in the Church. “Pray” does not mean “worship”, it means “to ask”. And it’s only been 450 years since some Christians stopped praying to saints in heaven, so that is the exception, not the norm. ¾ of all the Christians on the planet pray to saints.

[/font]http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

I hope this helps.

kepha1


#4

To the Catholics:

I have always wondered how come the heads make it so hard to understand the Bible.
Years of heartache led me to a faith in Jesus that surpasses all of what the Catholic Church can offer.

I discovered that the Bible is not hard to understand; ask the Lord Jesus! He says it is not hard if you truly believe in Him. My friends and family do not misunderstand Who He really is, if they were really teaching the truth, don’t you think it would be easy to talk to Jesus, just like the apostles did when He was here?

He said: Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and **my burden is light.
**
Jesus says time and again; 2 Corinthians 6:17-18 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

The apostle Peter said we should; 1 Peter 5:6-7 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

It isn’t a man-made thing that Jesus wants us to worship, it is Him. I do not see Mary in this. So in my understanding we are to cast everything on Jesus; **nothing more and nothing less than Him.
**
My prayer is that you will hear Him.


#5

Galatians 1:6-19 ** I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:** Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.

Please don’t propogate the lie that Jesus didn’t have brothers and sisters through Mary and Joseph; the Bible does tell the truth. They may have only been through the marriage relationship, but they are real. As for John being commanded to look after Mary at the crucifixion, His brothers in the flesh did not believe on Him until after that, so why would He intrust Mary to them, being a good Jewish son? John did look after Mary, but he was also banished; so when did he stop looking after her? Too many myths in the RCC for me, and that is a big reason why I am out. I do not want to be part of the “new babylon”.


#6

redeemed:

“And why do we need to pray to anyone else when all we have to do is ask Jesus since we are to come boldly to the throne of grace?”

Did Paul sin when he asked others to pray for him?

“I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me. Pray that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints there” Rom 15:30-31

“19Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.” Eph 6

Didn’t Paul know that he could pray directly to Jesus himself, and didn’t need others to pray for him?

“And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty­four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” Rev 5:8


#7

The Saints — “A Great Cloud of Witnesses” - by Patrick Madrid

catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=91&art_id=23526


#8

If you don’t even bother to read the link from Jimmy Akin that we’ve posted you’re not worth discussing with.


#9

My prayer is that you will hear Him.

Would you be praying for us? This is called intercessory prayer, when one saint prays for another. How is this different from the saints in heaven praying for us? What is right about you praying for us, asking your friends to pray for us, but it is wrong to ask the Saints in heaven to pray for us? What is the difference?

Sincerely,
Your sister in Christ,
Maria


#10

I have a question; actually it is a three part question…

So you come in here pretending to ask a sincere question…

To the Catholics:
I have always wondered how come the heads make it so hard to understand the Bible.
Years of heartache led me to a faith in Jesus that surpasses all of what the Catholic Church can offer.

It isn’t a man-made thing that Jesus wants us to worship, it is Him. I do not see Mary in this. So in my understanding we are to cast everything on Jesus; nothing more and nothing less than Him…My prayer is that you will hear Him.

…and the very next post you descend into a patronizing crass anti-Catholic sermonizing (and not very original at that!). What a nice, honest, straightforward Christian tactic (NOT!). :rolleyes:

When you’re ready to respectfully discuss things Christian to Christian as brothers, come back and see us. Until then, save it for Jack Chick.


#11

If the Bible’s so easy to understand, then why can’t you Protestants even make up your minds as to what it really teaches?

For example, is Baptism necessary for salvation? Lutherans claim that the Bible says it is necessary. Most Evangelicals say it isn’t. If the Bible is so easy to understand, what so much confusion on a matter so important, that relates to salvation?

Or how about this one: Can a believer ever lose salvation? Does he have eternal security? Different “Bible Christians” say different things.

I’d love to address the topic of your first post, but as it was apparently just a trap for us, for you to post your own emotion-ladden speel, I won’t.


#12

There’s just one, the one between God and man and that’s Jesus. Man, Catholics don’t even know that. Wow bogus.


#13

[quote=tralon]There’s just one, the one between God and man and that’s Jesus. Man, Catholics don’t even know that. Wow bogus.
[/quote]

Actually, we do know that. It’s in our catechism:

1546 Christ, high priest and unique mediator, has made of the Church “a kingdom, priests for his God and Father.” The whole community of believers is, as such, priestly. The faithful exercise their baptismal priesthood through their participation, each according to his own vocation, in Christ’s mission as priest, prophet, and king. Through the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation the faithful are “consecrated to be . . . a holy priesthood.”

618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”.

If you knew the Church, you would love the Church, not revile it, because you love Christ and this is the Church He established for you. I’ve shown you clearly that you do not know the Church. Why not find out about what the Church really says in her own words instead of in the words of people who revile her, who have deceived you into this falsehood you stated. Christ is the Truth. This falsehood you wrote innocently, I assume charitably, should be a good sign for you to look for the truth and away from whoever’s telling you lies about what the Church proclaims.

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

peace.


#14

I’m so sorry you felt you had to leave Christ’s Church. I’m coming the other way…as have tens of thousands before me.

I’m a former Evangelical Protestant who has been firmly convinced that the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus founded…and thus am planning to convert. About two years a go or so I was spending a lot of time on a Christian message board called Mount Biblical Sense. There, a Catholic, who went by the alias Iron_Monk, spent a lot of time defending the Catholic Faith, debating with Protestant members (the majority at that particular board) and providing a lot of Catholic apologetics material. I started looking into some of these works (reading articles at websites like Catholic Answers), and after a few months started to wonder if it was possible that the Catholic Faith was true. I continued to read online Catholic apologetics material and started to get really worried…what if it was true? What if my Evangelical faith was wrong in many key doctrines and concepts? At one point, probably during December 2002 I was really worried and concerned…I was in a heavy state of confusion. I prayed quite a bit, and in the new year I felt God had showed me the truth when I started reading some articles at a couple Evangelical apologetics sites that re-convinced me that the Catholic Church was not the true Church, and that the Evangelical Faith was most Biblically sound. So for several months during 2003 I was full-heartedly Evangelical once again. Probably in the late summer, I felt drawn back to the Catholic Answers site. I started reading a bit there again, and that started the second phase of my investigation into Catholicism. I started looking at many pieces of online Catholic apologetics material…stuff at Catholic Answers, ScriptureCatholic.com, Dave Armstrong’s mega site (ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM) and others. I also chatted quite a bit, over MSN messenger, with the same person who went by the alias Iron_Monk at Mount Biblical Sense—the guy God used to start my journey home J. Later on, I read Scott and Kimberly Hahn’s Rome Sweet Home (their conversion story…a very good read), which helped a lot. Catholic theology and issues occupied a huge amount of my time and mind…I was praying and contemplating various arguments for and against on a regular basis. Around this time I listened to an audio recording on Sola Scriptura (which can be downloaded here: maxbrackett.com/Audio01.asp) which played a crucial role in my rejection of this doctrine. By late December (of 2003) I was pretty much convinced, intellectually, that either the Orthodox faith or the Catholic faith was correct…I had mainly ruled out Protestantism by this time. I decided to order Dave Armstrong’s excellent book A Biblical Defense of Catholicism (in .doc format…you can get it for only $6…I HIGHLY recommend this book for any Protestant on this board. Dave is a former Evangelical, and provides, in my opinion, the best Biblically-based arguments I have seen explaining and defending various key doctrines of the Catholic Church. See Dave’s book page at ic.net/~erasmus/BOOKS.HTM). After reading this book, intellectually I saw it as very likely that Catholicism did contain the fullness of Christian truth, but I was not yet fully convinced in my heart or mind; so I prayed, and continued to meditate on the issues and arguments. Finally, in early January of this year, I came to a point where I suddenly realized that I fully believed that the Catholic Church was the Church that Jesus founded, and that the Magisterium, guided by the Holy Spirit, faithfully teaches the true deposit of faith.


#15

Currently I am reading through The Catechism of the Catholic Church and through the deuterocanonical (what Protestants refer to as the Apocrypha) books (see scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html for some NT evidence in favor of these books, and Dave Armstrong’s before mentioned book for more support. Here’s one good example:

For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. (2 Maccabees 12:44, NRSV)

…compare this to…

Otherwise, what will those people do who receive baptism on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? (1 Cor. 15:29, NRSV)
Notice the parallelism…this is a very difficult verse for Protestants, but according to Dave Armstrong (in the before mentioned book), baptisms can refer to sufferings or hardships one goes through…such as penances and prayers on behalf of the dead (so that those in purgatory will be comforted, and brought to Heaven, and for mercy for those condemned…prayer for the dead doesn’t change their eternal destiny, that is decided one earth). (In Luke 12:50 Jesus refers to His future work on Calvary as a baptism: I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and what stress I am under until it is completed!). )

Just take a look at the articles on this site (catholic.com) and look at some other ones too, like catholicoutlook.com or Dave Armstrong’s super-site ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM. I also highly recommend scripturecatholic.com, showing you verses that support various Catholic teachings. Christ is truly present in the Catholic Church…in a way you’ll never find Him anywhere else, in the Eucharist. There was only one Church that Jesus established, and that is the Catholic Church. Look at the writings of the early Christians. Look at Scripture as a whole, not just select verses Evangelicals have shown you. It is Catholic, very very Catholic. (If you properly understand the Catholic faith…I mean no offence, but most who have left don’t, and many who are still in it don’t as well, sadly).


#16

As for prayer to the saints, others have already posted links to great articles explaining this, but I’d like to just say a couple words. Here on earth we ask our fellow brother and sisters to pray for us. Why do we do this if we can go straight to God? Because we are a family—the communion of saints! God wants us to be united together, worshipping Him as a unit. Why do we pray at all? God knows all things. But prayer brings us closer to Christ, and allows us to play a role in bringing about God’s plan. The saints in Heaven are holy and pure, so their prayer is especially powerful. (Remember, the prayers of a righteous man are powerful----see Jas. 5:16). Look at these passages. In both cases we see heavenly beings (saints in the first case—the 24 Elders, and an angel in the second) offering up our prayers! What does this mean to you?
And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (Revelation 5:8 ASV)
3 And another angel came and stood over the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should add it unto the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.

(Revelation 8:3-4 ASV)

The Catholic Church IS Christ’s Church. Of this I have no doubt, and I was raised an Evangelical Protestant. Look at the Scriptures as a whole, in the context of the times, and the beliefs of the early Christians. I’m reading the letters of St. Ignatius right now. He was the Bishop of Antioch in the early 2nd century, shortly after St. John died. He was a disciple, in fact, of the Apostle John himself. Yet we can see from his letters, that the early church believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the authority of the bishop! Many writings of the early Christians, from the late first through the first few centuries, can be found at newadvent.org/fathers

God bless you.

P.S. If you wish to discuss any aspects of Catholicism, please feel free to email me at tyler_fehr@hotmail.com


#17

Hey chill out dude.I’m just saying Jesus is the mediater. If you want to have 5 or 6, then your the one that has the problem dude, not me. Jesus is enough for me.


#18

Tralon: Have you looked at any of the links we have provided? Let’s keep this simple, and start with the basics. Do you believe that Christians can pray for each other? If your answer is yes, than you believe we can mediate, or intercede on others behalf. Jesus is the One Mediator between man and God, the Church has always taught so (because the Bible is a Catholic book, the Catholic Church being the only Church that existed at that time), but Christ wants us to be a family, all working together to His glory. We are called to pray for each other, to intercede for each other. But our intercession is through Christ, the one mediator. We can also ask our brothers and sisters in heaven to pray for us, like we can those on earth. I already posted a Scripture reference that shows the saints in heaven offering up our prayers to God. What is your reasoning that this is not possible? Asking the saints to pray for us can only bring us closer to Christ, just like asking those on earth does.


#19

Oh yeah, but they can’t forgive my sin, now can they.Only God forgives sin and that’s why Jesus is our only mediator. He forgives the sins between man and God. Got it?


#20

[quote=tralon]Oh yeah, but they can’t forgive my sin, now can they.Only God forgives sin and that’s why Jesus is our only mediator. He forgives the sins between man and God. Got it?
[/quote]

20:21-23
21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Btw, can Protestant answer the “retain” part of those verses?


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