Sadly, I’m quite a “bad” Catholic and most will reject what I have to say. Although I’m personally very conservative, traditional, devout, I’m also rather politically liberal. Although I’m liturgically traditional and I want to see the mass revival of Latin Mass and traditional devotions, I reject ordaining women priests and allowing homosexual marriage within the church and I’m very much anti-abortion, and pro-NFP, I’m also for secular gay marriage, easy access to contraception, and in some instances I could be considered pro-choice. I’m also not in favor of playing the evangelist card, as you’ve already seen. I don’t want to force my religion and my beliefs down anyone’s throat and I don’t like seeing others do the same.
Years ago I chose a lesbian life over my Catholic faith and God's plan for my life. I wish with all my heart that the faithful Catholics in my life at the time had drawn me in rather than push me out. Those who stood by me were the ultra-liberal "cafeteria Catholics" who used me as proof of their open-mindedness. Because they remained my friends, I accepted their lead and began the worst 10 years of my life.
It is posible to be the source of the conversion of a total stranger. But **most of the time **we touch the lives of those around us, those we call friends and to whom we give our time and attention.
You'd have to be deaf, blind, and incoherent not to know the teachings of Catholicism regarding homosexuality these days. Your friend knows what you believe. It is your job now to live your faith fully and with as much integrity as possible. If you have deep conversations over coffee, share with her your exploration of some aspect of the faith.
My new-age friend and I got into an amazing conversation about chastity that gave her a totally new perspective on it, even to the point of sharing her new thoughts with her boyfriend (they were absolutely having "relations" at the time).
Bind yourself to Christ, and then be a joyful, loving friend with her. It is much easier to love someone into the Kingdom of God than to scare and preach them into it.
I’ll add my 2 cents. It is good and right that you respect her. I disagree that you can “respect her choices”. Instead always have as a goal that she lives the way God has created her to live. God created marriage to be a life-long bond. Since she already left one marriage with a man and also left a relationship with another women, she may be doing harm to her soul and her sense of morality. I am not saying go out and preach and expect results. Instead, I hope that prayer and having as a long term plan of offering her the teachings of the Catholic faith will give her a chance to live her life differently. It is our duty to offer opportunities of growth and learning to others, especially thoughts we have relationships with which we can use as bridges. And then we pray that God will make up for what we lack and fail to do.
My 2 cents is as follows. I have a grown niece whom I dearly love who is a lesibian. Do i love her you betcha, do I wish she wasn't a lesbian, you betcha. Does she know I disapprove? you betcha. Do I ever condemn her nope, just love her and pray for her.
Can people judge you for being her friend ‘No’. Can you judge her for her choices? ‘No’. Can you evaluate the situation? ‘Yes’
I once had a friend who had an abortion and I loved the sinner and hated the sin and I now regret it. I should have been less scared and spoke up. After she had the abortion, she went through a horrid depression and took it all out on me.
I have to wonder how good a friend she is to you? If she can cause her own children to see mommy and daddy divorced, how much can she treat you with respect. If her second marriage can only last 14 months, I wonder about her. No matter how innocent her children are, they will get teased once the other kids at school find out their mom is a lesbian. Women who love the children do not put them through that.
Personally, I would be concerned about how she would treat me.
The bible says not to eat at the same table as certain people. Help her mend her ways, but don’t be fooled by a wolf in sheep skin
[quote="Goth_Catholic, post:22, topic:185084"]
Sadly, I'm quite a "bad" Catholic and most will reject what I have to say. Although I'm personally very conservative, traditional, devout, I'm also rather politically liberal. Although I'm liturgically traditional and I want to see the mass revival of Latin Mass and traditional devotions, I reject ordaining women priests and allowing homosexual marriage within the church and I'm very much anti-abortion, and pro-NFP, I'm also for secular gay marriage, easy access to contraception, and in some instances I could be considered pro-choice. I'm also not in favor of playing the evangelist card, as you've already seen. I don't want to force my religion and my beliefs down anyone's throat and I don't like seeing others do the same.
I don't see you as a bad Catholic. Heck, I actually agree with you on these things. Though I tend to like contemporary Masses (some of them are beautiful and awesome, if done in an appropriate manner) :D.
God isn't going to ask you whether you're a Republican or a Democrat when you're standing at judgment. Honestly, I commend you for your honesty and your willingness to live by example which, as you know, is more powerful than your words.
I attend a liberal university and am quite liberal myself. But, because of that, people are more open to hearing what I have to say about being pro-life or remaining a practicing Catholic (and, by extension, following the Church teachings). I don't fit the stereotypes they have and I try to listen to them and understand them. I say this, not to boast, but to share why it's not terrible nor contradictory to be Catholic and politically liberal. And why you shouldn't have to choose between your friends and your faith, unless it's your friends making you choose (well, they aren't your friends to begin with if they're doing that).
**You are doing the right thing don’t worry over what anyone says. I say this because you are showing love to your friend. Normally friends should love each other. It would be hypocritical to not be friendly with her just because of her orientation. **
In today’s passage of Sunday Mass we have the greatest commandment and truth of love. This was truly read in today’s mass of Jan. 31 2010.
Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way.
1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues 2 but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
3 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
4 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
5 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
[quote="The_Reginator, post:16, topic:185084"]
Dear Mr. Goth,
It is not so much as 'having the right to judge her ...' as us having the duty to look out for one another.
Who or what gives us the right to do that? The authority of the Catholic Church can be found in the CCC and we must use this and other Church documents as we make our way (along with our friends) through life. We know that some sins are graver than others.
And, yes, we should be brave enough to talk to our friends who use contraceptives or are pro-choice, etc.
But in all of this our motivation must be love, not pride.
-- This is a worthwhile discussion and is making me think. Ouch.
Some people have difficulty in making out the distinction of judging and looking out for.
You, dear friend, are treading a dangerous road and there’s very little in a way of Catholic doctrine in your preaching. Admonishing a sinner is an act of love towards him or her, while turning the other way on their sin to be “nice” is nothing but self-serving. Nowhere in Christian theology is niceness or tolerance considered a virtue. Quite the opposite, it can be a symptom of weakness of character. Saints not only admonish sinners, they are willing to suffer for them to be more like their Lord. You on the other hand seem to be more concerned about sinners feeling good about themselves and not stirring the pot. It must be a Goth thing.
No one here is condemning the sinner, but the choice to live a sinful life. Certainly, you can tell the difference, can’t you? Before you know it, you’ll be saying that we shouldn’t evangelize either. Oh wait, you already did. How peculiarly liberal of you, but I would hardly call it Christian. You’re welcome to quote the scripture, the magisterium, or the saints to prove your point.
The highlighted sentences in your post are contradictory.
You might as well tell her to cut all ties. :rolleyes: Let’s face modern day reality folks.
Admonishing a homosexual == Gay bashing
It’s sad but true.
Keep one’s beliefs to thyself that’s what I say. When she asks, warn her first that she might not like it and only should she insist that you tell her that you don’t approve. That way you’re less responsible for whatever negative reaction you’ll get out of her.
The bolded part makes sense, but the rest reminds me of what Jesus rebuked Peter with: judging by man’s standards and not God’s.
Modern day reality is wrong.
If pro-lifers kept their views to themselves, there would be far more abortions, and we would have been paying for them with our taxes for years now.
If the apostles kept their beliefs to themselves, Christianity would be limited to a small house in Jerusalem.
There is a part of Ezekiel that states that if we do not warn the sinner of his/her sin, we will be held guilty as well, but if we warn them and they do not listen, we will not be held responsible.
And St. Paul in 1 Cor. 5 stated that the man living in a state of incest should indeed be expelled - no namby-pamby wimpy nonsense about “oh, but if you cut off all lines of communication how will they ever return to the faith?”.
I think sometimes we are making a false god out of “preserving relationships” and “keeping the lines of communication open” at all cost. Jesus did say that He came to divide and that He would set family members against each other.
Yes, we have to be tactful, and that is the tricky part. What I’ve bolded can be one way of accomplishing that. But some people are simply hostile to the truth, so no matter how we phrase it they will be offended. But that does not absolve us of our responsibility to somehow express our disapproval.
The only thing in the OPs situation that comes to my attention in all of this is that her conversion happened after this situation began, so maybe this has yet to sink in.
I think it’s good to be friends with someone with SSAD. I think you should though make sure you are not doing things like, going out with them and their SO as if they are a couple. That to me would cross a line of prudence.
I don’t want to force my religion and my beliefs down anyone’s throat and I don’t like seeing others do the same.
I don’t think living your faith (all of it it just parts that you agree with) is forcing anything on anyone. Frankly, if you can’t live your faith out loud and transparently because of your ‘friends’ then they are the ones forcing their beliefs on YOU, and you are letting them. The best way for you to bring your friends to God, either here or in there hereafter, is to bring yourSELF to God. So, if you care about your friends you won’t acquiesce to their political or social ideologies. If they love you, they wouldn’t want youdoing that.
Admonishing Sinners is one of the Spiritual Works of Mercy, I would suggest in this case you make that diffcult choice to do so. I’m really unsure how you can see anything respectable about what your friend. What if your friend had left her husband and childeren to persue a life with another man? Then used extreme liberal view points and moral relitivisim to justify it? Would that play in your world? Is that cool? Or is it hunkey dory in your eyes because she “decided to be a lesbian”?
I won’t question your Catholic faith, I won’t question your loyalty to the faith. I will suggest that you should take some time to objectivly think out what exactly it was your friend did, and decide whether or not this is truely a respectable thing to do. Behaviour you would want your childeren to copy.
This isn’t so much about that your friend is gay as it is about the choices she is making in her life. The last few posters have said some very important things that I think you should consider.
I myself struggle with admonishing the sinner so I am not here to critisize or judge. But I do know that as Catholics we are all required to defend what it just, what is true. From what you have posted here it seems that your friend is a very broken individual. She left a whole family to find satisfaction elsewhere in life but even now she still can’t find peace. A man and his children are now broken because of this as well.
If this friend treats you with respect and respects your beliefs, then I agree with others that it is okay to remain friends. I question her ability though, to be a respectful friend based on what you indicated about her here.
And you would be a prime example of one who is holier then thou. We ALL live sinful lives in one form or another, we strive to live by God’s law, but ultimately we are all sinners worthy of hell, you are no better then anyone else and your beliefs are no better. Being a Catholic is not a pass to shove religion down anyone’s throat. And that is exactly what is going on here.
I forgot how closely extremely conservative Catholics can resemble Protestants.:rolleyes:
Just because we all live sinful lives (I don’t disagree with your point) what about this gives us a pass on admonishion eachother? Admonoishing the sinnner is a spiritual work of mercy, doing so helps protect them from the fires of hell. I would most certainly expect any one around me (and anyone on this forum) to do the same for me. I would not consider someone a true friend unless they were willing to do this.
By taking the “you live your life, I’ll live mine” we sink into the deadly (or corporal) sin of sloth. That is spiritual sloth.