One or more then one God?


#1

I asked a Catholic Priest at lunch a few years back if one day he will be able to embrace or shake hands with both God the Father and separately with Jesus Christ the Son. He said “separately”. This comment does not agree with the Trinitarian doctrine of “one substance” The Catholic Church and most of Christendom may believe in the non-Biblical doctrine of the Trinity but I don’t think the majority of Christians do.

An important question which Christendom has been debating for over 2 millennia is the following: If Jesus Christ is God then what about God the Father? Is He also a God? If so, then this would show or prove the existence of at least Two Gods and not One. Christendom has united with Islam and Judaism to be Monotheistic, (the worship or belief in only One God). The New Testament is not Trinitarian. Only a few scriptures lend themselves to the doctrine of the Trinity formulated by a council of Bishops and Priests in 325 A.D. i.e. (That Jesus is of the same substance of the Father). However, over 350 Scriptures show that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are Three separate beings and not of one substance. Ex. Jesus praying to God His Father on several occasions, God the Father’s voice being heard at the Baptism of Jesus, and most important Jesus Christ’s own Words when He (as the Resurrected Lord) told Mary that He (Jesus Christ) had not yet ascended to His Father and to His God. Here’s the quote.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Even the phrase “Son of God” denotes a plurality or at least a duality. Will we take away the Divine Sonship of Jesus by making Him of the same substance with the Father? Why can’t Catholics and most of Christendom accept the testimony of the Bible and accept that Jesus and God the Father are both Gods? Even Stephen the first Christian Martyr said he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God”

You can’t just rationalize the Doctrinal Dilemma between the Trinity concept and the overwhelming scriptures that show the separate nature of God the Father and God the Son by saying “this is a mystery”. If you do, then the very foundation of one’s faith, (that of one’s personal relationship to God) becomes a mystery. The foundation of one’s faith can not be a mystery. I hope I didn’t open up a can of worms, but I would like some comments.


#2

I believe where one is present so are the other two.You cannot have one without the other. Sounds like that marriage song? :smiley:


#3

It appears that you do not understand the creedal usage of the term “substance” (Greek: ousias). This term refers to the *nature *of God. There is one nature in God, but there are three persons each of whom fully possess that one nature.

It also appears that you have moved from a Trinitarian position to the heresy of modalism.

The correct understanding of the Trinity is that there is one God. When Jesus died on the cross God experienced death on the cross. Of course, God cannot die, but the human body of Jesus which he assumed could – and did. So, if I shake hands with Jesus I am, indeed, shaking hands with God.

But, Jesus (the Logos) is not the Father, and the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Holy Spirit – yet each of those persons (not people) is the one, true God. This is not a mystery of mathematics, but of ontology.

There also seems to be either an error in your initial premise ("The Catholic Church and most of Christendom may believe in the non-Biblical doctrine of the Trinity but I don’t think the majority of Christians do.[font=Arial]) or you do not consider Catholics and, indeed, “the majority of Christendom” to be, in fact, Christian. Since Catholics are the majority of Christians in terms of members of any given denomination, and Trinitarian Christians are, indeed, the majority of Christians, I wonder at the basis for your statement.[/font]

Deacon Ed


#4

[quote=LDSBOB]I asked a Catholic Priest at lunch a few years back if one day he will be able to embrace or shake hands with both God the Father and separately with Jesus Christ the Son. He said “separately”.
[/quote]

I’m not trying to be cute, but God the Father doesn’t have “hands” to shake. My point is that when we try to describe God the Father in human terms, we instantly fall way short of the mark. Jesus is God in human form. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God that resides in our spirits - we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, not of God the Father or the Son. Each Person has a different relationship with us, but they are Persons of the one Godhead. My feeble attempt to describe the Trinity is filled with “human” images and falls short. Deacon Ed does a much better job.

May I presume from your name “LDSBOB” that you are Mormon. If so, then I understand your confusion, because you believe that God the Father has a physical body and is the same “species” as we are. Is that not correct? Well, what you have brought up is one incredibly significant difference between Trinitarian Christianity and Mormonism. As long as you have an image of the Father as being confined to a physical body, there is no place for a Trinitarian Godhead.

Blessings


#5

If you truly believe in three separate “gods”, please explain these quotes from the BoM…

2 Nephi 31:21

  1. And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the away•; and there is bnone• other way nor cname given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the ddoctrine• of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the eFather, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is [/font]fone[font=Times New Roman]• God, without end. Amen.

Mosiah 15:3-5

  1. The Father, abecause• he was bconceived• by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

  2. And they are [/font]aone[font=Times New Roman]• God, yea, the very bEternalcFather• of heaven and of earth

  3. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God


Alma 11:38-39

  1. Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?

  2. And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very aEternal• Father of heaven and of earth, and ball• things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;

cont…


#6

Alma 11:44

  1. Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be arestored• to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the bFather, and the Holy Spirit, which is [/font]cone[font=Times New Roman]• Eternal God, to be djudged• according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

#7

[quote=LDSBOB]The Catholic Church and most of Christendom may believe in the non-Biblical doctrine of the Trinity but I don’t think the majority of Christians do.
[/quote]

Perhaps the best way to start is for you to describe what you think Catholics mean by “Trinity” and we can proceed from there.


#8

[quote=SPOKENWORD]I believe where one is present so are the other two.You cannot have one without the other. Sounds like that marriage song? :smiley:
[/quote]

Your so profound;)


#9

LD,

Why not get a Catholic book to better explain this, you can hide it so no one else sees it and find out all about it.

Just a suggestion, you won’t be banished to the flames and you might learn even more than what you thought

Peace and Love


#10

LDSBOB,

At least three men have been patient with you and asked you to go back and do your homework before finalising your question.

Vincent hit the mark when he said,“Perhaps the best way to start is for you to describe what you think Catholics mean by “Trinity” and we can proceed from there.”

You have an impediment in your thinking. You see , we Catholics read Scriptuure and see that God is Spirit, not flesh and bone. Try that please.:whistle:


#11

Actually, you seem to confuse “nature” with “person”. The phrase “Son of God” denotes a plurality of persons in one God, not a plurality of natures, for there is just one and only one nature in God.

We don’t remove the water-ness of water by freezing one cup, then boiling another cup. Both cups contain only one kind of substance: water! We don’t say there are two separate, different kinds of water in those two cups, but we say that they are the same substance chemically speaking, though in different states.

Gerry :slight_smile:


#12

Nope, heres your answer = 0


#13

[quote=AmericanAtheist]Nope, heres your answer = 0
[/quote]

This would be better: 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Gerry :slight_smile:


#14

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