ONE TRUTH!, Jesus never wanted His Church divided!


#1

John 17: 20-23, 20 "I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

A passage we should always bear in mind as we search to regain the unity we have some how lost over the past two millenia. It is a moral and divine mandate for us all who profess Jesus Christ as Lord to find His ONE TRUTH, no matter what theological persuasion we espouse. As Jesus Christ IS ONE LORD and Saviour for all.  

I strongly believe my Catholic faith in Christ is the original and fullest means by which He offered for man Salvation in Him. Though I could be wrong in my theology no matter how strongly I believe in it, I even admit that for myself as a Catholic. And I pray for the Holy Spirit to correct me if I am in error, and I WILL humbly submit to His correction. But until then, or when I see a more persuasive argument for another way, I WILL remain Catholic.

And every day I pray for and would personally give my life for the cause of unity in ONE TRUTH for the Body of Christ.


#2

Great post.

Whenever my Evangelical friends call me a pagan I ask them two questions…

  1. Who is your Pope? I have a Pope who can infalliably intrepret the Bible, his name is John Paul II. You have read something or heard someone that you believe tells you the infallible intrepretation of the Bible. Who is that person, your Pope?

  2. What Church did Jesus establish on Earth. We know he established one, can you tell me what is the name and address of it?

I have yet to get an answer to eigher question.


#3

Amen! One Faith, One Baptism, One Lord. Thank you Lord for the gift of you church.

God Bless…


#4

Great! Also, go to www.biblechristiansociety.com and order John’s tape (or CD) entitled One Church.

You’ll love it!

Then pass it on to the evangelicals.


#5

Our Divine lord did more than express a desire, He made a promise that the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church. So therefore His Church can never be divided. The Church is one, in union with it’s head on earth, our Holy Father, the bishop of Rome. All non-Catholic Christians must return to Catholic unity if they are to have a genuine hope of salvation.


#6

The further a denomination is from the Catholic Church, doctrinally speaking [like cults], the smaller, more fragmented they are. The closer they are to Catholicism [such as Anglicanism], the bigger and more stable they seem to be. From this we can reasonably infer that the source and basis of unity within Christendom can only be Catholicism, and no other.

Gerry :slight_smile:


#7

No he didn’t. But so is the Catholic church divided. Between the Eastern and the Roman. The Eastern won’t accept the Pope ruling over them.


#8

[quote=tralon]No he didn’t. But so is the Catholic church divided. Between the Eastern and the Roman. The Eastern won’t accept the Pope ruling over them.
[/quote]

Read Jn 17:22 again.

And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.

One thing is for sure, he definitely didn’t want 28,000 + denominations.


#9

No way dude. The Catholics on the east side of town won’t accept the Pope as the man. That’s the real deal


#10

[quote=chrisg93]Great post.

Whenever my Evangelical friends call me a pagan I ask them two questions…

  1. Who is your Pope? I have a Pope who can infalliably intrepret the Bible, his name is John Paul II. You have read something or heard someone that you believe tells you the infallible intrepretation of the Bible. Who is that person, your Pope?

  2. What Church did Jesus establish on Earth. We know he established one, can you tell me what is the name and address of it?

I have yet to get an answer to eigher question.
[/quote]

The answer I get to #2 is that the body of believers is the Church that Christ established and therefore everyone who believes in Christ is part of His Church.

How do I argue that point?


#11

Dear Sir Knight:

When someone tells me about the church really just being a body of believers, I ask them to clarify whether they mean that the Church Christ established is just an invisible church and not a visible one. If Jesus truly meant that the church was to be an invisible church made up of a body of believers, then how do we determine who is and is not truly a believer? Such determination is necessary if we are to carry out Christ’s command about bringing an erring brother or sister in front of the Church (Matthew 18:15-18). Also, why does St. Paul spend so much time talking about the visible hierarchy of an alleged invisible church?

Peace

Fiat


#12

[quote=Sir Knight]The answer I get to #2 is that the body of believers is the Church that Christ established and therefore everyone who believes in Christ is part of His Church.

How do I argue that point?
[/quote]

Ask them about the wheat and tares and about the sheep and goats. In the Parable the Tares are IN THE KINGDOM yet were put there by Satan. If your prot friends are right then there would be no evil in the Church. Dont let them get away with saying “well they really were not in the body” because Jesus says they are. Sheep and Goats. Goats go to hell. Goats call Him Lord and He performs miracles through them as they call on his name. So YES these goats are also in the Body, members of the Church. They CLEARLY are gifted with His Spirit. Yet they too go to hell.

So whats the point of all this? To the evangelical mind the Church is,as you quoted, everyone who believes. To them that means that the Body of Christ is all those who are saved. But it is not. The Body of Christ, the Church, is all those who are called by His name, even if they are not “Saved”. That is one of the points of the Wheat and Tare parable. Tares look just like wheat except they bear no fruit. The Sheep and Goats, both call on his name but the Sheep are the ones who bore the Fruit of Righteousness. “You fed me” “you clothed me” etc etc.

So tell your evangelical friend that the Church on earth is all those who are called by His Name, all who have been baptized, NOT all those who are “saved”. The Church has LOTS of “Unsaved” people in it. The first was Judas.


#13

Dear Metal

Great response, brother (or sister)! I’ve always used the wheat and tares parable to address my protestants friends when they ask me why there are sinners and hypocrites in the Catholic Church, but I never thought about applying that parable to the invisible church concept.

Peace
Fiat


#14

[quote=chrisg93]Great post.

Whenever my Evangelical friends call me a pagan I ask them two questions…

  1. Who is your Pope? I have a Pope who can infalliably intrepret the Bible, his name is John Paul II. You have read something or heard someone that you believe tells you the infallible intrepretation of the Bible. Who is that person, your Pope?.
    [/quote]

Good day, Chrisg

Pope: often Pope Roman Catholic Church. The bishop of Rome and head of the Roman Catholic Church on earth. … Websters

You posit that a Pope can interpret, that may or may not be true,. That would not be a condition for the use of that word. You may think he can do that by what standard do you prove it to your self? It would seem to me that in order to do that one must uderstand what the meanings of word and idoms used really mean with in the context they were written?

Primary Biblical Scholar of the RCC:

[font=Times New Roman]Raymond E. Brown:[/font] Roman Catholics who appeal explicitly to Spirit-guided church teaching are often unaware that their church has seldom if ever definitively pronounced on the literal meaning of a passage of Scripture, i.e., what the author meant when he wrote it. Most often the church has commented on the on-going meaning of Scripture by resisting the claims of those who would reject established practices or beliefs as unbiblical. Raymond E. Brown, An Introduction to the New Testament (New York: Doubleday, 1997), p. 31.

Continuing in the next sentence, Brown says, “Moreover, church interpretations of Scripture in Roman Catholicism are affected by qualifications laid out in reference to church teaching in general which have the effect of recognizing historical conditioning.” Raymond E. Brown, An Introduction to the New Testament (New York: Doubleday, 1997), pp. 31-32.

Raymond E. Brown: To the best of my knowledge the Roman Catholic Church has never defined the literal sense of a single passage of the Bible.” Raymond E. Brown, The Critical Meaning of the Bible (New York: Paulist Press, 1981), p. 40.

[font=Arial]Historical conditioning does not equal infalliblity nor interpereting.[/font]

  1. What Church did Jesus establish on Earth. We know he established one, can you tell me what is the name and address of it?

I have yet to get an answer to eigher question.
Augustine – The Church is the realm of Christ, His mystical body and His bride, the Mother of Christians. He also speaks of an inner and outer church, and the difficulty of telling from appearances who are members of this true church (the "enclosed garden spring shut up, fountain sealed, the paradise with the fruit of apples) who are the elect, and belong to the “invisible fellowship of love”

[font=Arial]That is the Church.[/font]

[font=Arial]Peace to u,[/font]

[font=Arial]Bill[/font]


#15

[quote=tralon]No way dude. The Catholics on the east side of town won’t accept the Pope as the man. That’s the real deal
[/quote]

We musn’t confuse Eastern-rite Catholics with the Orthodox. Eastern-rite Catholics are in communion with the Holy Father, Orthodox Christians are not, and therefore they are not Catholic.


#16

[quote=bbas 64]Good day, Chrisg

Pope: often Pope Roman Catholic Church. The bishop of Rome and head of the Roman Catholic Church on earth. … Websters

You posit that a Pope can interpret, that may or may not be true,. That would not be a condition for the use of that word. You may think he can do that by what standard do you prove it to your self? It would seem to me that in order to do that one must uderstand what the meanings of word and idoms used really mean with in the context they were written?

Primary Biblical Scholar of the RCC:

[/font]
[font=Arial]Historical conditioning does not equal infalliblity nor interpereting.[/font]

  1. What Church did Jesus establish on Earth. We know he established one, can you tell me what is the name and address of it?

I have yet to get an answer to eigher question.
[/quote]

Augustine – The Church is the realm of Christ, His mystical body and His bride, the Mother of Christians. He also speaks of an inner and outer church, and the difficulty of telling from appearances who are members of this true church (the "enclosed garden spring shut up, fountain sealed, the paradise with the fruit of apples) who are the elect, and belong to the “invisible fellowship of love”

[font=Arial]That is the Church.[/font]

[font=Arial]Peace to u,[/font]

[font=Arial]Bill[/font]
He did what with the who now?
Since when did Raymond Brown share in the Divine Charisma of Infallibilty?


#17

Hi Bill,

I’m a average Catholic so I"ll try as best I can to answer you.

I believe is it correct that the Church has defined relatively few passages of the Bible. The ones they have been infallibly defined are the ones pertaining to the Sacraments and Salvation and the nature of God so there are at least ten of them. I’m sure there are others that I can’t think of right now so I’m guessing maybe 20-30 passages total off the top of my head.

I have no clue what “historical conditioning” is.

The infallible Catholic intrepretation of The Holy Eucharist is the prime example of Catholic teaching. There have been thousands of books written about it by thousands of theologians for two thousand years. It’s true meaning could hardly be undiscovered, if you believe the Bible is meant to be understood by humans at all. Also, remember that some of these theologians have been given the Gifts of the Holy Spirit of Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding which is true for the Church teaching authority in general.

I use the word Pope loosely. I do mean the Pope but also the teaching authority of the Church in various forms such a Councls, Magisterium…etc.

The Church that Jesus established on Earth is quite visable, 'Lamp on a hill", “pillar of Truth” and so forth. It is Biblically impossible for Prots/Evans/Fundas to be true Churches because they are not “one” as Jesus said his Church would be.

The “elect” who finially get to heaven are known only to God, not that they are “non-denominational”.

Thanks


#18

Most countries, companies, groups and clubs put one person in unequaled authority over all other members in the group. They do so to unite the group in the direction all group members will be compeled to follow. Rather than having twelve leaders equally pulling the group in twelve different directions, groups give one person unequaled authority to unite the group.

American president Abraham Lincoln used the entire might of American military forces to fight those who wanted two men with equal ultimate authority on American soil. America has built a memorial to President Lincoln for his service to America in keeping our country united and strong.

Abraham Lincoln quotes Jesus in his “house divided” speech, which he gave preceding the American Civil War. [historyplace.com/lincoln/divided.htm](“http://www.historyplace.com/lincoln/divided.htm”) Abraham Lincoln and Jesus say, “A house divided against itself cannot stand.”

**NAB MARK 3:24 **

“If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.”

Are twelve Church leaders or one hundred and eighty Church leaders or 20,000 church leaders with equal authority, the will of Jesus? If it were, Jesus would have never have lifted St. Peter to unequaled authority over the other elleven Apostles and all of Christianity. It is Jesus will that Christianity be united through His authority given to St. Peter. Tens of thousands of Protestant denominations prove the need for Christ’s will for unequaled human authority over His Church.

God most destructive wrath is poured out on those who protest and try to schism against the man who sits in the God authorized seat of unequaled authority over God’s Church of Israel. Please visit geocities.com/athens/forum/3325/korah.html

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com


#19

[quote=Jim ov Cov]Augustine – The Church is the realm of Christ, His mystical body and His bride, the Mother of Christians. He also speaks of an inner and outer church, and the difficulty of telling from appearances who are members of this true church (the "enclosed garden spring shut up, fountain sealed, the paradise with the fruit of apples) who are the elect, and belong to the “invisible fellowship of love”

[font=Arial]That is the Church.[/font]

[font=Arial]Peace to u,[/font]

[font=Arial]Bill[/font]

He did what with the who now?
Since when did Raymond Brown share in the Divine Charisma of Infallibilty?

Good Day, Jim

These are questions that I do not understand, sorry:confused:

Peace to u,

Bill
[/quote]


closed #20

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