Oppressive husbands


#1

Some husbands use or go beyond Church rules to oppress there wife. A good submissive wife maybe trying to be submissive to God’s Will but her husband may by his nature takes advantage of her submission to God’s will to give him more power over her as her husband. The idea of being submissive to God’s will for women tends to lead to abusive men taking advantage of it. Because some husband abuse this power of submission it cause the wife to but trapped in abuse, even it its just emotional abuse. It can even go so far as to prevent a wife a way out of a abusive relationship or at least make it more dangerous and a life time of suffering either way. Oppressive men tend to be very attracted to the Catholic Church because its rules can be easily abused and kept hidden. it makes me sick because I love my Catholic faith but hate how some people abuse it. Women aren’t perfect either but this thread is about oppressive men. this kind of man usually refueses coounseling or spiritual guidance and if they do go they tend to think they are smarter then everyone else and therefore its bad advice they received. IMPO a abusive father is worse than no father at all.

How do we teach/change men like this to become better husbands and fathers?
if a wife does leave a husband like this how does she prevent his marcissistic brainwashing upon the children? (more then likely he will get some custody).


#2

Are you in the United States? Honestly, I think women from fundamentalist backgrounds are far more likely to end up in that camp than any woman in a Catholic Parish.

The Church doesn't usually even preach from the pulpit using the word submission. They usually just talk about equal respect and love for your spouse etc.

I also don't think that a woman being submissive to her husband in a Godly way, tends(the word you chose to use) to lead to abuse. I think that is definitely the exception, not the norm, and usually there is a lot more going on in the woman's life, marriage and domestic setting that she has found herself.

I think the Catholic Church much more openly treats women as equals, at least in this place in time, and it would take an extremely Orthodox Church setting for any Catholic woman to not find herself among women who are working, modern and anything but submissive.

May an abuser seek out a weak, God loving woman and try to use submission as a key to get her to act or behave in a certain manner. Sure. But that is not the Church's fault, at least not in our present day. Decades/Centuries ago, perhaps.

We should be aware of such situations, but I certainly disagree with the idea that a couple that tries to live out a Godly marriage of love and respect with the man being the head of the family, as Christ is the head of the Church is something that automatically or even likely leads to abuse.


#3

Husbands are also called to love their wives like Christ loves his church. Jesus is a good shepherd and a servant to his church. Jesus said that two become one flesh. It is sad how some people pick out a "one liner" from church doctrine or the bible to serve their selfish wants.


#4

Low self esteem tends to trap women in abusive relationships, not so much the Catholic faith. It is very easy to attach unhealthy thinking to religious tenants. I used to think insulting myself was humility. I used to confuse a negatively healthy attitude and disgust toward sexuality as chastity.

I am still learning what the authentic meaning of these words are. How do I keep from jumping to opposite extreems? On one extreem I whimper, cry and passively take abuse. On the other side, I demonize the abuser, simplify and stereotype the abuser's actions and then generalize it to all people similiar to that abuser.


#5

To my mind the misuse of the power of husbandhood falls under the third sin crying out to heaven for justice.

It is interesting to read St Therese of Lisieux's autobiography where she describes a transition over time from annoyance at a certain sister to create joy whenever this nun did something that would previously cause offence. I simplify her story greatly so I apologize to her devotees, but if I remember correctly, this joy arose out of the presentation of an opportunity to offer something for God. For St Therese, the path to sainthood was not in converting thousands of sinners or creating great works to glorify God, or creating wonderful interpretations of theology or even the martyrdom she speaks of in her book. She describes her pathway to sanctity by doing the least of her actions for love of God.

So where does this leave us. Firstly, the first thought of a mother is rightly for the safety of her children. And if this requires separation then so it must. Obviously this decision must be made on a case to case basis and is very difficult to discern.

Having had something to do with the lawyer side of family law, the general instinct after a seperation is for each spouse to attempt to limit to the smallest degree possible the contact that the other spouse will receive with his child. I think it is very easy to lose track that the person that you are trying to limit contact with is the parent of the child. In most cases the children end up being used as weapons against the other spouse. This can happen even when things start off with the most noble and best of intentions.

So what should be done in these circumstance? I think the only way forward is the adoption of a spirit of upmost respect of the other spouse. By demostrating patience and charity, the children will eventually understand the true nature of things. The age-old clique is that actions speak louder than words. I think this is especially so with children.


#6

[quote="Leo13_Pius10, post:5, topic:284051"]
To my mind the misuse of the power of husbandhood falls under the third sin crying out to heaven for justice.

[/quote]

Which one is that?


#7

Step 1: Marry a guy who admires and respects women, and treats them well (esp. his mom).
Step 2: Make sure he isn’t crazy and/or lying.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit


#8

[quote="Havard, post:7, topic:284051"]
Step 1: Marry a guy who admires and respects women, and treats them well (esp. his mom).
Step 2: Make sure he isn't crazy and/or lying.
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit

[/quote]

:p. Where do the underpants fit into this equation?


#9

[quote="mini_me640, post:8, topic:284051"]
:p. Where do the underpants fit into this equation?

[/quote]

I'm not touching that one!


#10

[quote="Rita77, post:1, topic:284051"]
How do we teach/change men like this to become better husbands and fathers? If a wife does leave a husband like this how does she prevent his narcissistic brainwashing upon the children? (more then likely he will get some custody).

[/quote]

By not making statements like this, especially where they can hear (or in this case see) that this is what you really think of your faith.

[quote="Rita77, post:1, topic:284051"]
Oppressive men tend to be very attracted to the Catholic Church because its rules can be easily abused and kept hidden.

[/quote]

The Catholic Church does not cause situations like what you described. If things are really that bad, then get it on paper.

If anything, I would say that families going through type of suffering are not that close to the Church. Notice that I said "families" and not "persons". Husbands that are truly involved in parish ministry are not prone to living double lives.

Otherwise, women need to be prepared for the reality that they may have to save their family. Many women, in particular Catholic women who tend to be SAHMs, are not prepared for such a disaster. Being strong is not just a matter of faith. It takes character, determination, will, drive, and if necessary, ambition. Never allow yourself to be at the mercy of someone whom you cannot trust.


#11

[quote="heart4home, post:2, topic:284051"]
Are you in the United States? Honestly, I think women from fundamentalist backgrounds are far more likely to end up in that camp than any woman in a Catholic Parish.

The Church doesn't usually even preach from the pulpit using the word submission. They usually just talk about equal respect and love for your spouse etc. they don't preach it but some Catholic's take some teaching to far.

I also don't think that a woman being submissive to her husband in a Godly way, tends(the word you chose to use) to lead to abuse. I think that is definitely the exception, not the norm, and usually there is a lot more going on in the woman's life, marriage and domestic setting that she has found herself. yeah its not the norm but it does happen and rarely are both husband and wife on the same spiritual level.

I think the Catholic Church much more openly treats women as equals, at least in this place in time, and it would take an extremely Orthodox Church setting for any Catholic woman to not find herself among women who are working, modern and anything but submissive.

May an abuser seek out a weak, God loving woman and try to use submission as a key to get her to act or behave in a certain manner. Sure. But that is not the Church's fault, at least not in our present day. Decades/Centuries ago, perhaps. it does still happen today

We should be aware of such situations, but I certainly disagree with the idea that a couple that tries to live out a Godly marriage of love and respect with the man being the head of the family, as Christ is the head of the Church is something that automatically or even likely leads to abuse.

[/quote]

I never said it was the Church's fault and we can't just say its rare so shove it under the rug

[quote="ahollars, post:10, topic:284051"]
By not making statements like this, especially where they can hear (or in this case see) that this is what you really think of your faith. you missunderstood me I was reffering to NPD personally disorder not the Church teachings. but I see know how it can be read that way. abusive men tend to have NPD (narvisssistic personality disorder). I ment if a wife left her NPD abusive husband he could brainwash the children to hate her.

The Catholic Church does not cause situations like what you described. If things are really that bad, then get it on paper.

If anything, I would say that families going through type of suffering are not that close to the Church. Notice that I said "families" and not "persons". Husbands that are truly involved in parish ministry are not prone to living double lives. mentally ill people like NPD can be very hyper religious (its a great way to control people). Otherwise, women need to be prepared for the reality that they may have to save their family. Many women, in particular Catholic women who tend to be SAHMs, are not prepared for such a disaster. Being strong is not just a matter of faith. It takes character, determination, will, drive, and if necessary, ambition. Never allow yourself to be at the mercy of someone whom you cannot trust.

[/quote]


#12

IMO, this has little to do with religion, religion is just a mode for people who are by nature controlling and abusive.

These types of people are ones who would be controlling or abusive if they were religious or not, though it may be easier to accomplish their goal if they can convince someone it's part of the religion.

Men learn to treat women the way their fathers treat women or the way the mothers allow men to treat them. A boy in a home with father that is abusive is much more likely to be abusive to women. A boy in a home with a single mother that allows men to abuse her or is immoral in her relationships with men is much more likely to abuse women.

Basically, you need to raise your boys with fathers who are respectful of women and in the case of a single mother she needst to be very careful about how the men she's around treat her. The woman cannot tolerate it and the fathers need to show them how to be good men.


#13

I really hate the submissive subject and I really regreat posting it, its rare and no one every understands. I DON'T want this to get personal. I would rather leave my own thread now this subject its way to depressing for Mothers day weekend.


#14

I think if a husband really wants to be oppressive using religion, the being a extreme fundamentalist or another religion that controls women would be their ideal way to go.


#15

Maybe, If I understand the OP, her question has to do with how narcissists distort the Faith in order for it to be a tool of their narcissism?

A woman in that situation would need good pastoral care, and a competent attorney to help her with separation if necessary and with child custody and visitation.

There is a concept known as parental alienation syndrome.

A competent attorney should be able to bring that as evidence when determining custody and visitation.

My friend is separated and her children see their father through supervised visitation. That could be an option in dealing with a narcissist. There is also court ordered rehabilitation of the relationship with the father. They see a counselor and have law guardian to insure they are being treated properly


#16

[quote="Mary_Gail_36, post:15, topic:284051"]
Maybe, If I understand the OP, her question has to do with how narcissists distort the Faith in order for it to be a tool of their narcissism?
A woman in that situation would need good pastoral care, and a competent attorney to help her with separation if necessary and with child custody and visitation.

There is a concept known as parental alienation syndrome.

A competent attorney should be able to bring that as evidence when determining custody and visitation.

My friend is separated and her children see their father through supervised visitation. That could be an option in dealing with a narcissist. There is also court ordered rehabilitation of the relationship with the father. They see a counselor and have law guardian to insure they are being treated properly

[/quote]

yes you understood what I was trying to say. good advice too.


#17

[quote="Mary_Gail_36, post:15, topic:284051"]
Maybe, If I understand the OP, her question has to do with how narcissists distort the Faith in order for it to be a tool of their narcissism?

A woman in that situation would need good pastoral care, and a competent attorney to help her with separation if necessary and with child custody and visitation.

There is a concept known as parental alienation syndrome.

A competent attorney should be able to bring that as evidence when determining custody and visitation.

My friend is separated and her children see their father through supervised visitation. That could be an option in dealing with a narcissist. There is also court ordered rehabilitation of the relationship with the father. They see a counselor and have law guardian to insure they are being treated properly

[/quote]

I think this restating the question very well. I also like this statement by the Bishops that centers around domestic violence but I believe is apropos to this topic.


#18

I have a friend dealing with exactly these kinds of issues. Trust me, his severe personality disorder came first, and then he found ways to use religion as a club afterward. Unfortunately, in her case, she has a CRMI "priest" and "bishop" routinely lying to her and betraying her, and helping her husband to subvert their children out of the Church, even to the point of re-performing sacraments and doing others without her permission. She has been more than respectful and reasonable in trying to deal honestly with them and to allow whatever she could in good conscience, and they have lied to her and manipulated her over and over again. (They promised they would "re-do" her kids Confirmations only conditionally, and she realized too late, in the middle of the service, that they were not. Her heart is broken that a sacrilege was performed on her children.) It is disgusting to see this sweet soul so abused by her husband (who tells the children their mother is a heretic and going to Hell, and they are not even allowed to pray for her unless it's for her to convert to their CRMI church) and to have people posing as men of God help him do it. She admits she did not choose well, but she never saw this coming.

Catholicism doesn't cause these issues. Abuse of it does.

For those who don't know what CRMI is, here is a link. They are sedevacantists. cmri.org/


#19

Hi. One of the respondents said that a husband truly involved in parish ministry would not be abusive, or something to that effect. I disagree with that. I have read several articles, and experienced myself first-hand as the wife of an abusive man involved in parish ministry, that often a spouse (especially husbands, it seems) can divert attention and energy that should go to their wife and family toward the ministry instead. The positive affirmation they receive from this ministry can become exhilarating, whereas life at home is mixed with financial concerns, chores, stresses, needs, etc. Parish ministry is often where a person's gifts shine in a public way, and people tend to be on their best behavior in public, whereas being a loving husband and father requires self-sacrifice and home is often where the worst behavior comes to the fore. Before you know it, the ministry takes more and more of his time, the wife's needs become more and more of a nagging burden, the children get hardly any of his time, all in the name of "serving the church." One article I read mentioned that divorce rates among Catholics involved in a large number of "apostolates" is higher than among Catholics who are less involved in these external activities. In my opinion, the best way to serve the Church is to focus on spouse, family, and home. Yes, the church does need laypeople to help with some things. But we have to guard against pride as well, the idea that only "we" can do a certain task or fill a certain role, even if it leaves our family relationships limping along. When there is a loving, close, trusting relationship with one's spouse, and one's children are happy and healthy, this is a better evangelizing tool than ignoring wife and family to join yet another committee or club or ministry. After all, that is the primary commitment: the marriage vow.


#20

[quote="Rita77, post:1, topic:284051"]
How do we teach/change men like this to become better husbands and fathers?
if a wife does leave a husband like this how does she prevent his narcissistic brainwashing upon the children? (more then likely he will get some custody).

[/quote]

What is the verse immediately preceding "Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord." (Eph. 5:22)? It is this: "Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ." (Eph. 5:21) That section of Holy Scripture goes on to say that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church!

Better catechesis, all around. What you are describing is a warping of the faith. It is wrong, wrong, wrong. If you meet a woman who does not get that, her pastor can usually straighten her out, and she will perceive that he has the authority to interpret the faith better than her husband.

What can an abused spouse do to prevent an ex from brainwashing the children against her? It is a widespread problem, and has lots of answers. Staying with him isn't one of them. Forcing children to watch his abuse of her is abuse of their children. It cannot be tolerated.


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