Orans posture prohibited during Lord's Prayer


#127

In our diocese, I hear the most crying by far in the TLM.


#128

I’m not advocating hand holding, just not accepting rejection of it when it’s offered.

Jim


#129

Mass isn’t an individual form of worship, but communal

Salvation as never individualistic, but socialistic, per Pope Benedict XVI.

Jim


#130

Not accepting rejection? Almost makes it sound like you’d grab that persons hand and hold it firmly for the duration of the Our Father, whether they like it or not.

I’d love to know what writing from Pope Benedict you specifically have in mind.


#131

Children during mass is a great good.

Now… I really dislike noise, and especially baby crying. If anything its a thousand times more distracting than hand holding during Our Father to me. But if I’m hearing it during a mass, then that’s an excellent sign and it makes me happy.

Always good to say a prayer for the parents as well. Children are a divine blessing but an infernal noise.


#132

False dichotomy.
We are unique individuals who are part of a community. It’s both/and.
Salvation is not an ism either way, neither individualistic or socialistic. Salvation is for each unique individual saved as integral parts of the whole…as St Paul explains in his “parts of the body” talk.
Union with Christ in his body does not deny our uniqueness.

Our Hispanic community for instance, has unique expressions of religious culture and spirituality at Mass. They tend to be more spontaneous and charismatic, in the good sense of the word.
Would you have them lose their uniqueness and individuality so they worship “just like the rest of us”?


#133

People may have a perfectly good reason for rejection of hand-holding – arthritis, injuries, illness. It’s not for others to judge.
BTW, “I prefer not to” is a perfectly good reason. Trying to force someone to hold your hand when they don’t want to is very rude, and completely out of place in worship. I don’t tell others “you can’t hold hands because I don’t want to.”


#134

Actually, trying to force someone to hold your hand would be assault. I’m sure no one is advocating that.
Years ago, I was poked with a sharp fingernail during the Our Father for not joining the hand holding chain. I didn’t press charges. Just ignored it.


#135

It might be where you live. Here, just physical contact is not assault. It must be done in a manner deemed offensive, ultimately decided by what others deem is reasonable. I sure would not take accept a charge like that.


#136

The key word is “force.”


#137

Got it. I don’t know how that could happen in this situation though.


#138

I doubt that it does happen. I really don’t worry about people suddenly grabbing my hand. I’m usually holding the Missal anyway.


#139

I’ve seen people reach over and grab another person’s hand. Had it happen to me once, even though my hands were already folded together.


#140

You’re misunderstanding what I wrote.

When a hand is offered to me, I will not reject it

Hope this helps

Jim


#141

From his Encyclical, Spe Salvi

Is Christian hope individualistic?

  1. In the course of their history, Christians have tried to express this “knowing without knowing” by means of figures that can be represented, and they have developed images of “Heaven” which remain far removed from what, after all, can only be known negatively, via unknowing. All these attempts at the representation of hope have given to many people, down the centuries, the incentive to live by faith and hence also to abandon their hyparchonta , the material substance for their lives. The author of the Letter to the Hebrews , in the eleventh chapter, outlined a kind of history of those who live in hope and of their journeying, a history which stretches from the time of Abel into the author’s own day. This type of hope has been subjected to an increasingly harsh critique in modern times: it is dismissed as pure individualism, a way of abandoning the world to its misery and taking refuge in a private form of eternal salvation. Henri de Lubac, in the introduction to his seminal book Catholicisme. Aspects sociaux du dogme , assembled some characteristic articulations of this viewpoint, one of which is worth quoting: “Should I have found joy? No … only my joy, and that is something wildly different … The joy of Jesus can be personal. It can belong to a single man and he is saved. He is at peace … now and always, but he is alone. The isolation of this joy does not trouble him. On the contrary: he is the chosen one! In his blessedness he passes through the battlefields with a rose in his hand”[10].

  2. Against this, drawing upon the vast range of patristic theology, de Lubac was able to demonstrate that salvation has always been considered a “social” reality.

and

This real life, towards which we try to reach out again and again, is linked to a lived union with a “people”, and for each individual it can only be attained within this “we”. It presupposes that we escape from the prison of our “I”, because only in the openness of this universal subject does our gaze open out to the source of joy, to love itself—to God.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi.html

Read the entire Encyclical, it explains more about salvation being a social reality rather than just an event for the individual

Jim


#142

Read it for yourself

http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi.html

Jim


#143

Being reserved is not the same as being cold. We shake hands and I admit I don’t feel comfortable entirely doing that but I go along with it and offer up my discomfort. It helps to remember that we are meeting Jesus in the form of His church. Feel much less weird kneeling alongside a stranger than I do physically touching them.


#144

I don’t like holding my own mother’s hand. I have a phobia of bodily secretions: sweat, saliva, blood, waste, etc.

I get very weirded out when holding someone’s hand and their hand is sweaty, has lotion on it, etc. I also get weirded out if my hand starts sweating.

I remember in elementary school or middle school, wanting to break up with a girl over her sweaty hands. I know it’s my issue, but sweaty hands it’s very distracting for me and weirds me out.

So when I have done it at mass, I can’t help but feel the hairs on the back of my neck standing up.

If you don’t experience this, then lucky you. That’s why you don’t understand. For some of us, there is an honest physical reaction that takes place and it’s very distracting & uncomfortable.

I know the reaction isn’t even rational, but it’s there. It’s like my wife’s fear of elevators, it’s not rational - it’s a phobia.

Heck, I don’t like holding my own children’s hands when their palms are sweaty - though I deal with it if I need to keep them safe. But I will quickly let go if there is no danger.

So again: forcing people to do things that is a major distraction for them is not needed. People who want to hold hands can do so. No big deal.

Just don’t pressure people into do it.

God bless


#145

There might be a little truth to this, but it’s not just English speakers. While some British can appear to be far more “cold” than Americans in this regard; the Germans have a similar reputation as the British.


#146

Yes, I was refering to the northern-western population in general. I guess I should have said the germanic descendants or something :rofl:


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