Orans posture prohibited during Lord's Prayer


#147

What it appears is that you are wanting people here on the forum to feel guilty or feel that they are uncaring because they choose not to hold hands during the Our Father, even if it is offered.

I dont think that is what you actually intend but in a way that is pushing something that is not in the rubrics for Mass.

People have many reasons for not wanting to hold hands and that is ok and doesn’t mean they are uncaring.


#148

I gave up feeling guilty over others feeling insulted where no insult is intended, for Lent.


#149

Is giving a slight nod, and whispering “no thankful” rejection in your mind?

Why would anyone even offer their hand to a stranger?


#150

Well, the fact that these anti-holding hands and orans posture threads show up so often, it isn’t people like myself trying to make others feel guilty, but just the opposite.

I need to just start ignoring these threads as they’re not conducive toward spiritual growth,.

Jim


#151

Why would anyone even offer their hand to a stranger?

Because at Mass some people want to make others feel welcome ?

Lets be a community of friends rather than a group of strangers, as our priest says

In fact, before Mass even starts, our priest asks the congregation to turn to the people around them and introduce themselves and say hello to each other.

Jim


#152

I guess it can work both ways.

I agree but there are many ways to accomplish that.

That seems to me a better idea than reaching out to someone you dont know while they are praying.


#153

Ah thank you, that does make more sense.

I’ll do that. Thank you for the clarifications.


#154

What’s the point? Please don’t throw documents at people. That’s what fundamentalists do.
Address the point I made.

We are unique individuals forming a community. Both/and.
The Church is not socialist. The social character of the Church respects the unique individuality of it’s members.

What exactly are you trying to dispute?


#155

At my school, when we go to Mass, everyone does the Oran’s posture. I personally prefer to just fold my hands, but I cant really do that when everyone around me is holding hands. What should I do? I would stick out like a sore thumb if I didnt join in.


#156

No, you probably wouldn’t.
If you don’t like holding hands and someone offers you a hand to hold and you refuse it, they might choose to take issue. I don’t think they would if your facial expression is friendly or if they go to take your hands and you have your head bowed, hands clasped and eyes closed already. As for praying palms up, people really do not care that much. If someone asks why you don’t and you just shrug and say, “I just pray the same all the time, with my hands folded,” they’re not likely to argue with you.


#157

I was asked to provide a document supporting my statement, that salvation was not intended to be individualistic, but social.

You posted that my statement was false, , which is why I linked Pope Benedict’s Encyclical for you to read.

Jim


#158

Ok, let me do the same then, since you apparently are missing something:

There we go. Hope that helps.


#159

I fail to see your point in reposting the link to the Encyclical.

The Encyclical clearly states that salvation is not individualistic, but social

We are saved as people, not as an individual alone, and why Mass is for the Community, not just for the individual.

Jim


#160

This is what you said in response to others expressing preferences, as you yourself do.

And this is how I responded. To which you are stubbornly arguing to some? end.

False dichotomy.
We are unique individuals who are part of a community. It’s both/and .
Salvation is not an ism either way, neither individualistic or socialistic. Salvation is for each unique individual saved as integral parts of the whole…as St Paul explains in his “parts of the body” talk.
Union with Christ in his body does not deny our uniqueness.

Our Hispanic community for instance, has unique expressions of religious culture and spirituality at Mass. They tend to be more spontaneous and charismatic, in the good sense of the word.
Would you have them lose their uniqueness and individuality so they worship “just like the rest of us”?

Jim, what is your point…


#161

My point is that salvation and Mass are not for us individually alone, but for the community of believers. Our salvation is not unique, but in common with others who have the same faith. It’s not us and them, but all of us together. We’ll be in heaven with the community of saints, not just by ourselves.

I also understand that we as individuals seek a relationship with God, just as our brothers and sisters do. But it’s our union in faith which unites use.

At this point, I think we’re talking past each other.

Jim


#162

Yes, turning and facing someone, shaking their hand, all customary ways to make someone feel welcome. Wanting to holds their hand?


#163

We’re not talking about being in an elevator with a group of strangers, but at Mass

Not sure about the staunch opposition.

Need to move on

Jim


#164

I have stated multiple time, if people want to hold hands at mass, I have no problem with it. But they should not expect others to join in. And I am opposed to your idea that we are some how morally obligated to join in.


#165

Of course no one is obligated. I don’t hold hands in Mass, I don’t shake hands either. If others want to do one or both, good for them. If they want to judge me because I don’t join in, who cares?
I feel welcome by Jesus Christ. That’s plenty of welcome for me.


#166

There are no strangers in the Universal Church, only people we haven’t met yet.

Well, there is a chance He might say, “Friend, who appointed me as your judge and arbitrator?”

You just nicely indicate, “I can see your offer is kindly meant, but no thank you.” There is occasionally someone who insists, but honestly this isn’t something most people get that cranked up about.

So don’t wrangle! No problem!

OK, but nobody ever tried to grab Pope Benedict’s hand during the Our Father, true?
If the clergy do not see a reason to do this, why would anyone else?
There is nothing wrong with offering, at least I haven’t seen any posture proscribed in the rubrics, but it is necessary to respect those who don’t care to hold hands. It isn’t in the rubrics. They don’t have to. Mutual respect and refraining from judging anyone one way or the other is generous enough.

This beyond the pale. I wouldn’t get in an arm-wrestling match over it, but it is not kosher to force someone else into a particular posture that IS in the rubrics, let alone one that is not.

I don’t, either, but I don’t think it a cause for insult when someone does. That’s not to say someone won’t take offense or decide to get their feelings hurt, but they really don’t have a leg to stand on.

Again, if Pope Benedict had wanted hand-holding during the Our Father to be considered de rigueur, he could have put it in the rubrics. He did not. There is a reason for that.


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