Oriel36's claim that the Holy Spirit is not a Person


#1

On another thread a poster stated this:

"The Holy Spirit or Advocate is that faculty which connects Jesus and God or temporal life and Eternal Life together and teaches where they mesh and seperate.

The great Divine Will which accepts two types of Christians within the Apostolic community permits the lower interpretation until such time as the Spirit actually becomes manifest as Jesus says it does,not through any decision a person makes but as a gift of God.

The indulgence which facilitates prayer “to the Holy Spirit” is superseded by conversion in the Spirit ,there is no Holy Spirit to pray to because being born in the Spirit it is impossible to become unborn no more than it is possible to become physically unborn."

What do others on this board make of this?

Peace


#2

Well, the Trinity is three persons with one divine nature. And since God the Father is one person, Jesus is the second person, it follows that the Holy Spirit must be the third person.


#3

Acts 13:2 - While there were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirits said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them"
Note - Speaks as a Person.

Matthew 28:19 - Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit
Note - Two Persons, the Father and the Son, and a - what? Another Person. Not; two Persons and a force, concept, “faculty”, etc.


#4

Sorry, I’ve got some typos in that last post. “Spirit” in the Acts 13:2 quote is singular, not plural, also it should say - “they were ministering”, not “there were ministering”.


#5

The whole concept of the Holy Spirit is a very deep one. Let me see if I can get it right here!!

In essence the Holy Spirit is the result of the love that flows between God the Father and God the Son. Since the Father and Son have always been, the Holy Spirit has always been.

Since that love is perfect in every way, equal in perfection to God himself, the love ***is ***God. God the Holy Spirit, third person of the Blessed Trinity.

We sometimes also hear of the Holy Spirit referred to as RUAH; breath. That indescribable sigh of perfect love that issues from the Father as He beholds the Son and which issues from the Son as He beholds the Father. This breath, being perfect, since it issues from perfection itself and can never be less than perfect, must be equal in perfection to God and so must be God.

See if you can tie it up this way, taking quotes from Scripture and the Creed: ***“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the word was God.”***, ***“Your words are spirit, Lord, and they are life.”***, "The Holy Spirit is the Lord, the giver of life." Therefore the Holy Spirit is the giver of life, life issues from the the word of God and the word was with God and was God from the beginning.

Oh I dunno. Now I know I am going in circles. :o Apologies.


#6

Recommended reading: Frank Sheed’s “Theology and Sanity”, first section.


#7

[quote=dennisknapp]What do others on this board make of this?
[/quote]

Quite frankly, I can’t make heads or tails of it. But it isn’t orthodoxy.

I think.


#8

Im not quite sure I understand the original post, but I have read that the JW’s describe the Holy Spirit in a similar form. The example they use is that it is like electricity, just a force and not God.


#9

[quote=Catholic Dude]Im not quite sure I understand the original post, but I have read that the JW’s describe the Holy Spirit in a similar form. The example they use is that it is like electricity, just a force and not God.
[/quote]

This is another one of his posts:

"The Holy Spirit is a gift from God that connects the temporal with the Eternal through the Life of Jesus as both God and man.

We,at least those of us who are truly Christian,judge all things through the ground of the Holy Spirit in knowing where our temporal existence meshes and seperates from our Eternal existence.

You bring all things down to temporal existence and externalise those things such as Jesus,Spirit and God.Normally this is allowed so long as no attempt is made to present this Spiritual deficiency as a true reflection of Christ and Christianity.

You do not pray to the Holy Spirit,the Holy Spirit is that Intuitive guide in connecting Jesus to God and temporal existence to Eternal Life .

"Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God,and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. "

usccb.org/nab/bible/1john/1john4.htm

Accepting two types of Christians with One Spirit is altogether different that arguing like spoilt children over denominational differences or trivia .You chant the slogan - “pray to the Holy Spirit” for guidance when clearly this looks odd to those who accept the complimentary Christian division as a necessary but provisional situation within Apostolic Christianity."

Peace


#10

Here is another one of his posts:

"The Holy Spirit is not an external entity,the Holy Spirit is that Intuitive faculty which sorts and sifts all facets of Christ and Christianity.Once a person is born into the Spirit,come what may,there is no way to become unborn.

If you do not like Augustine there is always Paul,the man who never met Jesus in the flesh but could judge Peter.

"for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ…Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? "usccb.org/nab/bible/1cor…orinthians3.htm

You use slogans like " pray to the Holy Spirit" carelessly as if you can’t comprehend the Trinity."

Can anyone make heads or tails of this? Its sound kind of Gnostic to me, with all this talk of “special knowledge.”

Peace


#11

If i am following the quotation marks correctly that guy seems to be a borderline JW. I also just remembered I think there is another protestant group out there like the Unitarians or something. I dont know much about them so I cant really say much, but I have heard that they dont accept the Trinity and my guess is that they would be making the same comments, but I not really sure


#12

[quote=dennisknapp]On another thread a poster stated this:

"The Holy Spirit or Advocate is that faculty which connects Jesus and God or temporal life and Eternal Life together and teaches where they mesh and seperate.

The great Divine Will which accepts two types of Christians within the Apostolic community permits the lower interpretation until such time as the Spirit actually becomes manifest as Jesus says it does,not through any decision a person makes but as a gift of God.

The indulgence which facilitates prayer “to the Holy Spirit” is superseded by conversion in the Spirit ,there is no Holy Spirit to pray to because being born in the Spirit it is impossible to become unborn no more than it is possible to become physically unborn."

What do others on this board make of this?

Peace
[/quote]

It is heresy.


#13

[quote=Catholic Dude]If i am following the quotation marks correctly that guy seems to be a borderline JW. I also just remembered I think there is another protestant group out there like the Unitarians or something. I dont know much about them so I cant really say much, but I have heard that they dont accept the Trinity and my guess is that they would be making the same comments, but I not really sure
[/quote]

His answers are very cryptic and hard to follow.

I have asked him point plank questions regarding his beliefs and these are the answers I recieved. But he claims to be Catholic, or as he say an “Apostolic Christian.”

I have yet to read anyone from the “Apostolic” era say what he is saying, unless you count Gnostics.

Peace


#14

This probably wont help, but, as far as “You don’t pray to the Holy Spirit…”

O Holy Spirit
That my thoughts
May all be holy,
Act in me,
O Holy Spirit,
That my work, too,
May be holy,
Draw my heart,
O Holy Spirit,
That I love
But what is holy.
Strenthen me,
O Holy Spirit,
To defend
All that is holy,
Guard me, then,
O Holy Spirit,
That I always
May be holy.
----St. Augustine

Prayer to the Holy Spirit
O Holy spirit, beloved of my soul,…I adore You. Enlighten me, guide me, strengthen me, console me. Tell me what I should do–give me Your orders. I promise to submit myself to all that You desire of me and to accept all the You permit to happen to me. Let me only know Your will.

If nothing else, you can pray these prayers on how to handle this guy. Good luck & God bless!!


#15

He seems to be Catholic, but at the same time acts as if everyone is inferrior based on his understandings of the universe:

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=49044


#16

[quote=Catholic Dude]He seems to be Catholic, but at the same time acts as if everyone is inferrior based on his understandings of the universe:

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=49044
[/quote]

He loves to say things in a way that no one has any idea what he is talking about.


#17

If i am following the quotation marks correctly that guy seems to be a borderline JW.

Boderline schizophrenic, you mean. This guy has a mental disorder, not a theological argument. The way he talks and responds is text-book schizophrenic. There’s no point in trying to argue with him, or even to try and make heads or tails of his argument. The best you can do is observe and learn a little bit about a fascinating, and disturbing, mental illness.

I’m being completely serious, too. I’m not saying this in order to belittle him. Having worked with schizophrenics I would put money down that this guy either is one or is pretending to be one. In another thread I voiced my opinion that he was schizophrenic directly to him, and he quoted that part of my post and went off about gematria and how 666 doesn’t actually add up to anything.


#18

Why do you treat the sacred writing as if it too was going in circles ?.

The Holy Spirit comes from the deeps and brings a person to that deep and much has been said of the apprehension of God as Spirit and made understandale through the life of Jesus.

See how great our heritage is and why so many great Apostiolic Christians recognised Dionysius the Areopagite while contemporaries are basically no different than the Alogi,brutes who act and write without reason.Let those brutes who say that I claim something when I remind people of what already exists speak on the matter of Spirit in a manner that reflects its Presence in Christ and in his followers.

CHAPTER IV

That it that is the pre-eminent Cause of all things sensibly perceived is not itself any of those things.

We therefore maintain that the universal and transcendent Cause of all things is neither without being nor without life, nor without reason or intelligence; nor is it a body, nor has it form or shape, quality, quantity or weight; nor has it any localized, visible or tangible existence; it is not sensible or perceptible; nor is it subject to any disorder or inordination nor influenced by any earthly passion; neither is it rendered impotent through the effects of material causes and events; it needs no light; it suffers no change, corruption, division, privation or flux; none of these things can either be identified with or attributed unto it.

%between%%between%%between%-209-CHAPTER V That it that is the pre-eminent Cause of all things intelligibly perceived is not itself any of those things.

Again, ascending yet higher, we maintain that it is neither soul nor intellect; nor has it imagination, opinion reason or understanding; nor can it be expressed or conceived, since it is neither number nor order; nor greatness nor smallness; nor equality nor inequality; nor similarity nor dissimilarity; neither is it standing, nor moving, nor at rest; neither has it power nor is power, nor is light; neither does it live nor is it life; neither is it essence, nor eternity nor time; nor is it subject to intelligible contact; nor is it science nor truth, nor kingship nor wisdom; neither one nor oneness, nor godhead nor goodness; nor is it spirit according to our understanding, nor filiation, nor paternity; nor anything else known to us or to any other beings of the things that are or the things that are not; neither does anything that is know it as it is; nor does it know existing things according to existing knowledge; neither can the reason attain to it, nor name it, nor know it; neither is it darkness nor light, nor the false nor the true; nor can any affirmation or negation be applied to it, for although we may affirm or deny the things below it, we can neither affirm nor deny it, inasmuch as the all-perfect and unique Cause of all things transcends all affirmation, and the simple pre-eminence of Its absolute nature is outside of every negation- free from every limitation and beyond them all.

voidspace.org.uk/esoteric/mystical_theology.html


#19

[quote=Ghosty]Boderline schizophrenic, you mean. This guy has a mental disorder, not a theological argument. The way he talks and responds is text-book schizophrenic. There’s no point in trying to argue with him, or even to try and make heads or tails of his argument. The best you can do is observe and learn a little bit about a fascinating, and disturbing, mental illness.

I’m being completely serious, too. I’m not saying this in order to belittle him. Having worked with schizophrenics I would put money down that this guy either is one or is pretending to be one. In another thread I voiced my opinion that he was schizophrenic directly to him, and he quoted that part of my post and went off about gematria and how 666 doesn’t actually add up to anything.
[/quote]

I think you’re right…I almost hope you’re right. I’m afraid to think what the alternative might be…
If it were rational, I think it would be blasphemous…If this is a put-on, this guy is in deep spiritual trouble. If this is for real, he is in deep, deep mental trouble.In either case, this is seriously creeping me out…


#20

I have read some of his other threads. I just checked out that website…A combination of science fiction, eastern religions, &, I think, gnosticism… (Well, it says “cyberpunk & technology”)…not to mention William Burroughs, Scientology, Buddhism, & something called the :confused: “Jesus Army”…(???)
Whatever this is, it’s utterly bizarre. :twocents:


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