Origin of scripture


#1

Just out of curiosity,
I have heard the normal apologetic line that the Catholic Church gave us the Bible. The way I understand that is that the Church through an assortment of councils said here is the Bible. If that is the case, then how does that square with Jesus and the Apostles using the Old Testament (and the Old Testament predating the incarnation), and the Apostles teaching?


#2

Yes, the books of the Old Covenant predate Jesus, the Apostles and the Church. But that’s not what is meant when saying the Church gave us the Bible.

The Church in the late 300’s AD was at a point where there was disagreement about what books could be read in the Catholic Mass. It reached a point where the Church determined that the matter should be settled and made uniform for the entire Church. So Catholic bishops met and determined that 46 books of the Old Covenant, and 27 books of the New Covenant were allowed to be read at Mass. The Pope then ratified their decision and made it binding upon the Church.

So these 73 books began to get uniformly collected together into one large collection, which became known as “the books”, which in Latin is “bible”. A long enough time passes and “the books” become simply known as the Bible.

There are many important things to note from this.

  1. The “purpose” of the Bible is not as an instruction manual. It is a liturgical book for reading in the Mass.
  2. The Church has authority to declare what books are God’s word, and what books are not. This is an amazing amount of authority, equal to the authority of Scripture.
  3. Trying to understand the Bible outside of the Catholic Church and outside the Catholic Mass will lead to error, as it cannot be properly understood outside of it.
  4. The Church/Pope has authority to declare how worship shall be regulated, and has authority to bind the entire Christian world to their teaching.
  5. As noted above, the Bible is not an instruction manual, and the Bible itself notes that there are teachings of Christ that are not contained in the Bible. The Bible also notes that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

There are many more things to note from this, but these are a start. :thumbsup:


#3

It’s not really “if” that’s the case. That is the case. Specifically at the Council of Carthage in 397. These books were declared as inspired by God by the Catholic Church. The New Testament didn’t exist before this. The letters existed, but they were not in any sort of order nor were they widely read in the Christian world.

The Old Testament existed as the “Tanakh” prior to the New Testament, of course. The New Testament was added to it as its fulfillment. Before 397, the teachings of Christ were perpetuated by oral and written tradition of the early Church Fathers. So for the first 350 years or so of Christianity, there was no “Bible.” There was no “New Testament.” Yet the Christianity boomed. After 397 and until mass-print-production and widespread literacy were introduced, it was the Church who continued to perpetuate and spread the teachings of Jesus Christ. Most people couldn’t afford Bibles. Most people couldn’t read the Bible even if they had one. It’s a bit crazy to think about the fact that tons of the Christians throughout history were unable to read the Bible at all. They were 100% reliant on the Church for spiritual guidance.


#4

The Old and New Testament are the inspired word of God. God gave us the Sacred Texts.

The Catholic Church gave us the list of texts that were inspired.

Even among Jews during Jesus’ time there was not universal agreement on what constituted Scripture. The Sadducees only used the first five books - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. They did not think the Psalms or any of the works of the Prophets were part of Scripture.

-Tim-


#5

=tom25;13193920]Just out of curiosity,
I have heard the normal apologetic line that the Catholic Church gave us the Bible. The way I understand that is that the Church through an assortment of councils said here is the Bible. If that is the case, then how does that square with Jesus and the Apostles using the Old Testament (and the Old Testament predating the incarnation), and the Apostles teaching?

Tom, dear friend; you have just proven that THEY who determine the TERMS; determine & CONTROL the discussion.:slight_smile:

Here is WHY and HOW the Catholic Church did in FACT; “Birth the bible”

It was the early Catholic [a term later applied to Christians; in a similar manner as “The Way” led to the term Christians] Fathers [historically provable], who CHOOSE which OT books; GUIDED by the HS were to be included in “the Bible: a CATHOLIC BOOK:)”…

Then it was The Same Early Catholic Church Fathers who culled the writings of the Apostles and choose which books were TRULY Inspired by the HS; and both worthy of being included and from GODS perspective :thumbsup:NECESSARILY included.

Matthew 4:4
Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice,

2 Peter 1:21
For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost

SO WHAT IS IN THE BIBLE IS IN THE BIBLE BECAUSE GOD DESIRED THAT IT BE THERE:thumbsup:

The Jewish people were GROUNDED in their TORAH; of course Jesus and the Apostles [mostly Jews] reverenced and used it.:thumbsup: WHY?

Because the OT led to to the NT

The NT contains the OT; then completes and perfects it. hey are separate BUT inseparable PARTS of the ONE TRUE Faith God desires to share with us.

God Bless you,

Pat Miron


closed #6

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