Original sin and death of other creatures


#1

Men die,as warned by God,for disobeying his command.What could be the explanation for the death of other creatures?


#2

All creatures are mortal, it’s how the world works. They propagate, continue the species, and pass on.
Also, death may have entered the world when Satan fell and was consigned to earth.
But if animals didn’t die, we’d be knee deep in rabbits, cockroaches, spiders, and puppies. So death is a necessary part of this mortal world,.

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#3

I’m not sure if the Church has a teaching on this, but I believe that it has to do with God giving us dominion over animals. Even though Adam and Eve sinned against Him, God still let us “rule” over them. Because death entered the human world, it would have to be the same in the animal world for us to keep this dominion over them.


#4

We can imagine the horrible conditions if creatures including men do not die (knee deep humans, snakes etc.).My doubt was whether the death of other creatures has got any thing to do with Adam’s sin by which only humans die.Your explanation would suggest that Adam would have anyway died ,being a creature.


#5

Animals die because that is how they were created. It does not have anything to do with the sin of Adam.

When the Bible says death entered the world, it certainly means spiritual death. It is up for debate if it means physical death of man that was not there before.

Animals though were created and evolved certain ways. T Rex ate meat. Lions ate meat. Their nature was not changed by mankind’s fall.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm


#6

Is it not a bit unreasonable to presume that what God warned Adam was about the spiritual death and not the physical death ?


#7

Since it is believed that dinosaurs existed before mankind, it would appear that there was physical death before the fall–at least death by the disaster believed to have befallen them.

As to the animals’ nature being changed after the fall, it seems that Genesis 1:30 tells us that originally all of the animals were vegetarians: “…and to all the animals of the land, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the ground, I give all the green plants for food.”

But we also know that there were carnivorous dinosaurs, so maybe … (conjecture is interesting) … but I think we just don’t know for sure.


#8

At most, one **could **say that only human death was involved in OS, given that animal death is attested by all those fossils that are many times older than human life.

ICXC NIKA


#9

I’ll ask GOD when I get there, In the meantime there are soooo many other things to focus on in life. God’s GREAT Mysteries!!! God Bless, Memaw


#10

No it is not unreasonable as long as one does not undermine the reality that Adam and Eve existed and their choices forever changed humanity.


#11

This could be a possible explanation considering some scientific aspects also that animals existed and died millions of years before existence of man.But then we have to discard the 6 day theory in Genesis (according to which there is only one day gap between creation of animal and man )
and presume that the day mentioned in the early part of Genesis (and not elsewhere !) is not the normal day but millions of days duration.There appears to be no harm in such a presumption which is not against any Catholic teaching though some other sects vehemently hold that it is only the normal day.


#12

Nobody is disputing the reality that Adam and Eve existed and that their choice forever changed humanity.But the question here is whether it was spiritual death or physical death about which God warned them.That it was spiritual death only (that is they would have anyhow physical death ) does not follow from this reality.


#13

Animals can yes be said to have died before the fall.

The fall brought death (one can say both kinds…physical and spiritual) to MAN.


#14

Here’s a recent thread on the issue:
forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=1008051

One of my posts in that thread has a convenient list of related posts:
forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=13846827&postcount=8


#15

Hi, Joseie!
Were we created to be immortal (man, animals, plants…), we really cannot say. Though there are mysteries that point to longevity (turtles, trees, tics, frogs…); however, through the reflections of a prophet, Scriptures tell us that:

1 All things have their season, and in their times all things pass under heaven. 2 A time to be born and a time to die.

14 I have learned that all the works which God hath made, continue for ever: we cannot add any thing, nor take away from those things which God hath made that he may be feared.

20 And all things go to one place: of earth they were made, and into earth they return together. 21 Who knoweth if the spirit of the children of Adam ascend upward, and if the spirit of the beasts descend downward? (Ecclesiastes 3:1-2a, 14, 20-21)

7 And the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God, who gave it.

13 Let us all hear together the conclusion of the discourse. Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is all man: 14 And all things that are done, God will bring into judgment for every error, whether it be good or evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:7, 13-14)

And from Genesis we can surmise that there could have been a projected longevity or immortality:

22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. 23 And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken. 24 And he cast out Adam; and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (Genesis 3:22-24)

As for the difference (man vs. other creatures):

11 And he said: Let the earth bring forth the green herb, and such as may seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind, which may have seed in itself upon the earth. And it was so done.

20 God also said: Let the waters bring forth the creeping creature having life, and the fowl that may fly over the earth under the firmament of heaven.

24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.

26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.

27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. (Genesis 1:11, 20, 24, 26, 27)

7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

Man was created separate from the rest of Creation and only man received an infusion of God’s Spirit.

Maran atha!

Angel


#16

Hi, Joseie!
…the death that Adam would suffer was not physical death–as Scriptures note that Adam and Eve were exiled from the Garden. The death they suffered, and transferred to their descendants was a spiritual death (sin entered into their spiritual essence).

…as for overpopulation, it was determined (don’t know the source–I’ve not researched the issue) that all of the world’s population can be contained in the state of Texas.

I just read through this site: treehugger.com/sustainable-product-design/at-nycs-density-the-worlds-population-could-live-in-texas.html

Since God’s Creation was made with a built-in balance, plants, insects, and animals could maintain certain ecological balance… the only problem would be humanity… but given our propensity to discover and create, could we not, in the event of immortality/overpopulation, develop alternative eco systems (deserts/seas/underground/air/space/interplanetary)? …just saying! :D:D:D:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

Maran atha!

Angel


#17

Hi, Joseie!
Correct!

Though Yahweh God did not introduce terms and agreements, Satan (as the serpent) knew that God was actually speaking of spiritual death… so he did his dance (bait and switch) and sold Eve on a basked of lemons…

Maran atha!

Angel


#18

Hi, Joseie!
Genesis is not scientific information… it is a revelation that answers how and by whom?

The Catholic Church does not teach a six-twenty-four-hour period of Creation.

Scriptures hint at this in Genesis 1:

1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. 2 And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters. (Gen 1:1-2)

The scene is set: God is the Creator & He Created Heaven and Earth.

3 And God said: Be light made. And light was made. (Gen 1:3)

Yep, the Big Bang! Angels are creatures of light (spirit) the universe is populated by stars/planets–both of these (creatures of light) could have been Created at this juncture.

14 And God said: Let there be lights made in the firmament of heaven, to divide the day and the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years… 19 And the evening and morning were the fourth day. (Gen 1:14-19)

Now we have within Creation a placement of order… on day four (the fourth period) the system was set up with sun, moon, and earth–we can surmise that the sun dial was now in place (we would come to designate it as a solar day, the rotation of the earth around the sun).

So while Creation had began on day one (1st period) the planetary system (sun, planets, moons) was not created (formatted, if you will) till day four (4th period).

The description of Creation is not dissimilar to scientific findings that man was the last of Creation (6th period)!

Maran atha!

Angel


#19

1.Not clear what is sought to be conveyed from the Ecclesiastes verses.Beasts also have spirits ?
2.No dispute that man would have immortality if not sinned;man is quite different from other creatures etc.


#20

Not clear whether you are holding the view that the death mentioned in the Genesis was only spiritual death or physical death or both.


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