Original sin and evolution


#1

So my friend and I were debating whether or not every person is born with original sin. However, I came across a line on the Adam, Eve, and Evolution thread that said, "whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are." So if we did not inherit our souls from Adam and Eve who started the turn away from God how can people today be born with original sin?


#2

I think this paragraph from the CCC answers your question but if not, read the entire section from paragraph 396 to 406.

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

In short, it is a part of our nature as body and soul composite.

God Bless.


#3

Original sin is inherited in the sense that our souls are now created imperfect and prone to disobedience, which is how Adam and Eve chose to be despite originally being created perfect. Remember, God cursed them and their offspring, so thinking that our souls are still created perfect by God is incorrect.


#4

There is a temporary ban on evolution as a topic.

Ed


#5

It is not my intention to get into a discussion about a banned topic.

However, the effects of Adam’s first sin are part of Catholic teaching. Thus it is very important to clarify Catholic teaching regarding Original Sin.

Pardon me. I have been reading about Original Sin in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4. Would you please direct me to the place in the Catechism where you read that original sin is inherited in the sense that our souls are now created imperfect [by God] and prone to disobedience. What would be imperfect about a spiritual, immaterial, immortal soul? I thought our souls can be damaged–loss of sanctifying grace-- by our sins, not by God. Please help me to understand what you mean.

Link to Catechism [FONT=Arial]www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]Blessings,
granny

These two websites contain TV ads about Catholicism. The first is from one of the Dioceses which is using them. The second is general information.

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#6

[quote="grannymh, post:5, topic:188331"]
It is not my intention to get into a discussion about a banned topic.

However, the effects of Adam's first sin are part of Catholic teaching. Thus it is very important to clarify Catholic teaching regarding Original Sin.

Pardon me. I have been reading about Original Sin in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4. Would you please direct me to the place in the Catechism where you read that original sin is inherited in the sense that our souls are now created imperfect [by God] and prone to disobedience. What would be imperfect about a spiritual, immaterial, immortal soul? I thought our souls can be damaged--loss of sanctifying grace-- by our sins, not by God. Please help me to understand what you mean.

Link to Catechism [FONT=Arial]www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]Blessings,
granny

These two websites contain TV ads about Catholicism. The first is from one of the Dioceses which is using them. The second is general information.

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The words you quote me using are my words only and my understanding of the relationship of God and man after the fall. Sorry, I should have made it more explicit. Remember that the OP is asking about how original sin is tranmitted from our foreparents. It's probably not in the way that can be easily understood, but no doubt God's in full charge of that. After all, he ordains it (Gen 2:16).

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm#III

"399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives."

"400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination. Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay". Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground", for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history."

What would be imperfect about a spiritual, immaterial, immortal soul? I thought our souls can be damaged--loss of sanctifying grace-- by our sins, not by God

Original sin implies that we are born damaged, hence I extrapolated that God makes our souls imperfect. Here's a site that lists the dogmas of the Catholic church and among others it states:

22.Original sin is transmitted by natural generation.
23. In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity.


#7

[quote="dusza, post:6, topic:188331"]
The words you quote me using are my words only and my understanding of the relationship of God and man after the fall. Sorry, I should have made it more explicit. Remember that the OP is asking about how original sin is tranmitted from our foreparents. It's probably not in the way that can be easily understood, but no doubt God's in full charge of that. After all, he ordains it (Gen 2:16).

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm#III

"399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives."

"400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination. Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay". Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground", for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history."

Original sin implies that we are born damaged, hence I extrapolated that God makes our souls imperfect. Here's a site that lists the dogmas of the Catholic church and among others it states:

22.Original sin is transmitted by natural generation.
23. In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity.

[/quote]

Of course, one might refer to the soul as being "imperfect" so to speak. However, this state of soul is the result of sin, both contracted and committed. It is not due to any creative action of God. In order to understand transmission of original sin, soul also needs to be understood in relationship to Catholic teachings.

Original sin--not the soul-- is transmitted by natural generation.

Being deprived is a state which is a consequence of Adam's first sin and not some kind of consequence due to God's actions.

CCC 400 gives the results of original sin. It does not refer to God creating imperfect souls .CCC 403 refers to sin as the "death of the soul" not to its creation. CCC 405 says that human nature has not been totally corrupted. CCC 406 refers to the first Protestant reformers who taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom. Obviously, this particular teaching is in opposition to Catholic teachings.

Original sin leads to concupiscence CCC 405 and others. Original sin implies results which wounded our human nature . It is a "contracted" sin transmitted by propagation, that is, transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. There is no indication that God created an imperfect soul, whatever that would be. While it is important that "concupiscence" be understood, it is extremely important to see it as a result of Adam's first sin and not as some kind of imperfect soul created by God.

In my humble opinion, CCC 410 is a good paragraph to understand God's relationship with humans. "After his fall, man was not abandoned by God."

It is also important to know what the soul's spiritual faculties actually are. To understand what happened, CCC 407 and following needs to be read. This will also help explain the battle with the powers of evil. The control of the soul's spiritual faculties, intellect and will, over the body was due to the original harmony which existed before Adam scorned his Creator. It is the original harmony which is destroyed. This "shattered" control but did not remove the soul's spiritual faculties.
In fact, we have the same spiritual faculties as Adam. In addition, we have the graces of the seven Sacraments which strengthen these spiritual faculties.

I have noticed that on these forums there seems to be a haze surrounding the reality of Adam's first sin. In fact, I find that Adam, himself, is disappearing into the haze known as symbolism.

The [FONT=Arial]Catechism of the Catholic Church CCC 362-368 will give an introduction to soul. The human being is ordered to a supernatural end. Soul often refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God's image..... Soul signifies the spiritual principle in us.[/FONT]

Blessings,
granny

The unity of soul and body is profound.


#8

I have concluded that this is a difficult subject for me to discuss without further study. The OP poses a legitimate question that still hasn’t been answered satisfactorily, namely how is original sin passed on to the soul.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm#V

The above resource showed me that without the help of the saints, we may well be entertaining heretical beliefs on this subject. That’s certainly not my intention.


#9

I suppose the easiest way to explain it is that since Adam we are deprived of sanctifying grace, which is restored in baptism. So, our souls are incapable of the beatific vision, because that is not natural to the human soul; it is a free gift that God withdrew at the fall of Adam. By God’s design, having a human soul does not give us the right to see Him.

To correct myself then, God creates our souls no different than initially, but no longer provides the nourishment for the journey so to say, unless we willingly request it (admit dependence on God) in contrast to Adam’s original transgression (independence of God).

Original sin then is a state of deprivation, not a real “stain” on the soul.

(At this point I’m just thinking out loud)


#10

Your thinking is getting better. :thumbsup: I mean that in an encouraging way. My guess is that if you read CCC 404 slowly, sentence plus pause, you will find the answer to the OP. Unfortunately, the answer I see is not acceptable in a society dominated by the “scientific” philosophy that all realty is matter.

After I read the link you provided, I would like to discuss soul. It seems to me that the trouble I see regarding your ideas about soul is similar to what I have experienced. Only instead of studying, I spaced soul out except for the few bits of information I needed to pass the course. A half century later, I am finally facing the mystery of soul after a CAF poster informed me that I was thinking along the lines of Cartesian extreme dualism which is not Catholic philosophy. :o

Blessings,
granny

All human beings are worthy of profound respect.


#11

:confused:, I am sorry to butt in, but I was not aware that the science had anything to do with it? Are you sure you haven’t got science mixed up with the ancient and neo philosophy of materialistic naturalism?

I am finding it difficult to understand the Thomistic take on the soul my self. Oh well.


#12

[quote="MindOverMatter2, post:11, topic:188331"]
:confused:, I am sorry to butt in, but I was not aware that the science had anything to do with it? Are you sure you haven't got science mixed up with the ancient and neo philosophy of materialistic naturalism?

[/quote]

Hi Mind,
Long time no see. Actually, I was writing about scientific in quotes philosophy. You know, the kind that constantly asks "where's the evidence." This mentality that all reality has to be physical can't deal with the spiritual realm. Ah, one says. The immaterial cannot be put under a natural science microscope; therefore, it doesn't exist. :eek:

The answer to the OP question "how can people today be born with original sin?" begs for a flesh and bone, blood and guts answer because how else can one know it is real? To connect original sin to a spiritual soul is bad enough. But to say (CCC 404) "Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand." is not acceptable in a world under the influence of the biological sciences. Can you imagine what looking at a deprivation of original holiness and justice (CCC 405) under a microscope would be like? :whistle:

I am finding it difficult to understand the Thomistic take on the soul myself. Oh well.

If you are not in your "second childhood" like myself, be prepared for humility when presented with the deep concepts of soul. Soul is awesome! :)

Blessings,
granny

Human life is sacred from the moment of conception.


#13

djforce888
So if we did not inherit our souls from Adam and Eve who started the turn away from God how can people today be born with original sin?

The human soul is created directly by God (CCC #366).

The Dogma of Trent on Original Sin teaches the personal guilt of Adam & Eve for Original Sin, but the Magisterium does not teach a personal or actual sin or guilt in Adam’s descendants. What is present in our fallen human nature is the stain of that sin in each of us – we all born sinners (St Paul, Rom 5:19) – Adam transmitted his guilt to our nature – left in a state of sin. That is why the CCC #403 teaches that Adam "has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted…."
Our fallen state lies in our human nature received sinful from Adam’s nature.

The consequences of Adam’s sin and our state of sin are the loss of: sanctifying grace, of integrity, of immortality and happiness (therefore suffering), and of enlightenment.

Baptism remits that state of original sin, and incorporates us into the Church founded by Jesus Christ. It infuses sanctifying grace into the soul of the recipient and imparts an indelible character. All of the other consequences of the inherited original sinful state of our nature remain – our growth in holiness depends on our cooperation with the redemption of Jesus to enable salvation.


#14

This is an excellent question I was wondering about myself.

According to the Fathers, before the Fall man was immortal and perfect. How do we explain this?


#15

Man also had free will to choose good and reject evil -- Adam & Eve chose to disobey God and chose evil, hence the Original Sin and its effects as stated.


#16

[quote="djforce888, post:1, topic:188331"]
So if we did not inherit our souls from Adam and Eve who started the turn away from God how can people today be born with original sin?

[/quote]

Perhaps the concept that the vessels (our bodies) that God breathes life into are defective is helpful. It is a profound question.


#17

If evolution did occur, it's not likely to be the case that we have Adam and Eve in reality. Symbolic meanings can be found. As the nature allow us to have different gender, we come to a conclusion that all lives share common characteristics immediately. Evolution allows us to have a higher intelligence because of the complicated structure of brains. Different opinions have created conflicts in-between the God (a subject that manipulated our world from the very beginning of time) and human beings. Therefore, orginal sins simply do not exist. By referring to a Chinese idiom, "If you want to find fault with someone, there's no need to worry about finding a suitable pretext." This seems more likely to be an excuse for manipulation.

Every coin has both sides. Yet our thoughts (minds) are very decisive in judging the matters. Morality is a standard varies in different periods and places. It was developed from the common ground of our communities. Not a single subject has a stance absolutely correct. Hence, we have no choices but to compromise with each other. Even a subject that are capable of mainpulating our world, he/she is changing from time to time. Eternity is only a concept in our minds. It's similar to "infinity". Time is the descive factor for both living or non-living things. Decaying (aging) keeps us alive.

"Original Sins" come from birth and we end it with our death. Life is an **on-going **process. Soul remain doubtful. Think in the following directions: (1) Physical damages can corrupt our memory whilst "memory lost with aging" isn't an intrusive disease; (2) Bees have an natural behavior of rearing the offspring. **Does existence of "Love" really the decisive factor for human souls? **No matter it was a good intention (a comfort) or not, the existence of such a *god-like *subject is definitely the origin of these debates.

Evolution can be a miracle. Meanwhile, it can also be a process of growth of the entire planet herself theorectically.

Teru Wong


#18

Do you mean defective from the start as in defective merchandise?

What do you think about the word flawed as in good merchandise which we subsequently scratched so it is now flawed?

Blessing,
granny

Adam and Eve are real people by the grace of God.


#19

Hi, yes that is better. Adam damaged our nature and God breathes life into each new human who receives this damaged human nature from Adam.


#20

The "new" life comes only with Baptism or the desire for it. All, except the Blessed Virgin and Jesus, Son of God, are conceived with the stain of Original Sin.


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