Original sin/ Islamic point of view


#1

This thread is a follow up to my discussion with Freedom about the concept of original sin.

Freedom please respond in this thread about why don’t you believe in it, from your own words…i won’t quote Biblical verses so it’d be better if you don’t quote Quran…it’s not religious conversation but more of a philosophical one.

Go ahead…other muslims please feel free to express your ideas about it.

I’ll start with : is human nature pure?


#2

I believe Human nature is pure. People are not born evil.


#3

[quote=Shadowcry]I believe Human nature is pure. People are not born evil.
[/quote]

thx.

Do you think from purety stems impurity?


#4

Yes impurity or whatever can come from whatever. This is very vague why don’t you define this abit more.


#5

[quote=Shadowcry]Yes impurity or whatever can come from whatever. This is very vague why don’t you define this abit more.
[/quote]

can something impure come from something pure?


#6

[quote=inJESUS]This thread is a follow up to my discussion with Freedom about the concept of original sin.

Freedom please respond in this thread about why don’t you believe in it, from your own words…i won’t quote Biblical verses so it’d be better if you don’t quote Quran…it’s not religious conversation but more of a philosophical one.

Go ahead…other muslims please feel free to express your ideas about it.

I’ll start with : is human nature pure?
[/quote]

I beleive in original sin, but I’m not Muslim so i doubt you want my beleif.


#7

[quote=inJESUS]This thread is a follow up to my discussion with Freedom about the concept of original sin.

Freedom please respond in this thread about why don’t you believe in it, from your own words…i won’t quote Biblical verses so it’d be better if you don’t quote Quran…it’s not religious conversation but more of a philosophical one.

Go ahead…other muslims please feel free to express your ideas about it.

I’ll start with : is human nature pure?
[/quote]

We were not created perfect. Its not a question of pure or impure. Absolute purity and perfection is an attribute that belongs to God, alone.

We were created with free choice, and with that comes the ability to sin. Also, with that, comes the ability to repent. Those who seek the worship of God are in that sin and repent cycle.

In Islam, we believe that a Muslim is born sinless, not perfect, but with a clean slate. We do not inherit our father or a mother’s sin, as Allah states that no soul shall bear the burden of another. The sins that are written against us are those that we have ourselves earned.

In terms of reaching paradise, then it is with Allah’s mercy.

Someone once explained on this forum that original sin does not mean the inheritance of Adam’s sin, but just the ability to sin. If that’s true, than there is no disagreement between this point of view and that of a Muslim’s. The only disagreement would arise when we try to figure out what happens with that ability to sin. In Islam, we believe that through our own active repentance and God’s mercy…those sins are wiped clean. In Christianity, it is the blood of Jesus that wipes those sins clean.


#8

[quote=Shadowcry]Yes impurity or whatever can come from whatever. This is very vague why don’t you define this abit more.
[/quote]

Basically, I think he is asking, can evil human nature or bad human nature come from the pure human nature that you beleive there is? Can an 100% innocent baby and soul turn into a serial killer, or maybe just a pervert, without outside interference, pure to impure?


#9

great i see some similarities.

[quote=Faith101]We were not created perfect. Its not a question of pure or impure. Absolute purity and perfection is an attribute that belongs to God, alone.

Correct.

As a side not, is Jesus considered sinless in quran?

We were created with free choice, and with that comes the ability to sin. Also, with that, comes the ability to repent. Those who seek the worship of God are in that sin and repent cycle.

Fine, which means that we always sin and we always need to repent…which means that we can never be sinless since we are not pure correct? once you are impure, you cannot return pure correct?

In Islam, we believe that a Muslim is born sinless, not perfect, but with a clean slate.

But this baby is the same baby who will become human with tensancy toward good and evil correct?

We do not inherit our father or a mother’s sin, as Allah states that no soul shall bear the burden of another. The sins that are written against us are those that we have ourselves earned.

Correct.

In terms of reaching paradise, then it is with Allah’s mercy.

If you say you are merciful, you show it right? i believe that if God is merciful He must show it on earth, just like He shows His punishment on earth as well.Why should he be Just on earth but merciful after you die? i believe to say something is to prove it.

Someone once explained on this forum that original sin does not mean the inheritance of Adam’s sin, but just the ability to sin.

correct…

If that’s true, than there is no disagreement between this point of view and that of a Muslim’s.

perfect, maybe Freedom must read this reply cuz he said original sin concept is filthy.

The only disagreement would arise when we try to figure out what happens with that ability to sin.

perfect.

In Islam, we believe that through our own active repentance and God’s mercy…

but…thru your own repentance, you become “better” not “sinless”…if you repent, pray ecc, you become a better person, you try to apply God’s wish, but you cannot become sinless cuz sinlessness = purity, but we already agreed that we are not pure hence sinful. ( i repeat: sinful does not mean to kill, rape, ecc…sinful= ability/tendency to commit evil).

those sins are wiped clean. In Christianity, it is the blood of Jesus that wipes those sins clean.

In Judaism as well…all the sacrifices to God were for forgiveness of sins and the OT says that blood atones for sins…thats why animal sacrifice was practiced and thats why we say that Jesus is the fullfillment of Abraham’s sacrifice, the Last sacrifice.
[/quote]


#10

[quote=BryPGuy89]Basically, I think he is asking, can evil human nature or bad human nature come from the pure human nature that you beleive there is? Can an 100% innocent baby and soul turn into a serial killer, or maybe just a pervert, without outside interference, pure to impure?
[/quote]

correct


#11

Dear inJESUS:

Unfortunately you are **not reading ** others’ posts **nor your own typed posts ** nor your scriptures properly.

It seems to me that you just want to relpy peoples’ questions as fast as possible like a ROBOT, just for the sake of “answering”.

This robot attitude is not allowing you to think what you are actually typing.

Here, you, as usual, took few lines out of context of Faith101’s post and then try to “prove” your point. You just made me laugh at your inability to even see the very very clear things.

This attitude of “proving” things by hook or by crook, you seem to have ‘inherited’ from your Church traditions.

Now PLEASE RE-READ this passage again, of Faith101:

[INDENT]
[quote=Faith101
]Muslim is born sinless
[/quote]

, not perfect, but with a clean slate.

We do not inherit our father or a mother’s sin, as Allah states that no soul shall bear the burden of another.

**The sins that are written against us are those that we have ourselves earned. **

In terms of reaching paradise, then it is with Allah’s mercy.

Someone once explained on this forum that original sin does not mean the inheritance of Adam’s sin, but just the ability to sin. If that’s true, than there is no disagreement between this point of view and that of a Muslim’s.

The only disagreement would arise when we try to figure out what happens with that ability to sin.

In Islam, we believe that through our own active repentance and God’s mercy…those sins are wiped clean. In Christianity, it is the blood of Jesus that wipes those sins clean.

And I agree with this above qoute and this is what I was trying to expalin to you but Faith 101 explaind it in a very short and sweet and clear manner.

If you don’t understand this issue even after this clear explanation of Faith101, then I can only pray to God to have mercy on the condition of your brain.

Ability to commit sin does not mean at all that man is born with sin.

May be you like this kind of explanation:

Your God is decidedly God of Love or He Himself is Love, right?.

But Gos is Love does not mean that He is not going to punish His own choosen people - rebellious children, such as those Judah’s children whose every hair of their bodies your Master (assyid) will shave with a specific Hired Razor (bi-Moosa) from Assyrians. Read Isaiah 7:20 and it’s footnote # 9 in your catholic New American Bible for details, it will open-up your eyes very wide to see the other activities of Loving-God].

Here you will discover an another aspcet of your Loving-God who will inflict His SUFFERINGS and DISGRACE on His own people, no?? Does this mean that your God of Love is not a Loving-God, simply because He will shave the hair between the legs, beards and heads of His own choosen people?

Or are you telling me that since your Lord will act like a barbor to inflict His disgrace on His own choosen people, thus your Loving-God too is sinfull??

Let me now invite you to think on this scenario:

When Prophet Adam (PBUH) was born, did he commit the “sin” (mistake) the moment he was born or afterwards when he alongwith his wife were allowed to live in the Garden?

Lets say you too were there in the Garden between that specific period - i.e., between Prophet Adam (PBUH)'s birth and the incident when he ate the forbidden tree. In that period (prior to his eating the forbiden tree) if someone had asked you about the nature of man, what could have been your answer? Remember that man is already born and living in the Garden and on trial. Was he sinfull at that specific period? [/INDENT]



#12

[quote=freedomm]

Ability to commit sin does not mean at all

that man is born with sin. you are merely playing on words…do you , as a human being, have good and evil yes or no?

May be you like this kind of explanation:

the rest of your post is very below the standard of any rational discussion…as i said, you seem to be a literalist sunni .

Or are you telling me that since

your Lord will act like a barbor to inflict His disgrace on His own choosen people, thus your Loving-God too is sinfull?? what a level of ratinality you have, Is God’s punishment evil? where did you read that eh? God is merciful AND Just.

Let me now invite you to think on this scenario:

When Prophet Adam (PBUH) was born, did he commit the “sin” (mistake) the moment he was born or afterwards when he alongwith his wife were allowed to live in the Garden?

of course after, it’s obvious.

Lets say you too were there in the Garden between that specific period - i.e., between Prophet Adam (PBUH)'s birth and the incident when he ate the forbidden tree. In that period (prior to his eating the forbiden tree) if someone had asked you about the nature of man, what could have been your answer? Remember that man is already born and living in the Garden and on trial. Was he sinfull at that specific period?[/INDENT]

no, he bacame sinful ( not pure) AFTER . Am sure you are confusing original sin with another type of sin…as usual, long posts but no substance…
[/quote]


#13

can you now answer my questions to Faith since she did not reply? no long irrelevant posts, but answer specifically each question with your own words…


#14

Dear inJESUS:

Let me ask you a sinple counter question, then:

[INDENT]What is in fact Original Sin, anyway, that you believe in? Define it.[/INDENT]


#15

[quote=freedomm]Dear inJESUS:

Let me ask you a sinple counter question, then:

[INDENT]What is in fact Original Sin, anyway, that you believe in? Define it.[/INDENT]
[/quote]

Original sin is your tendancy toward evil instead of righteousness…


#16

[quote=inJESUS] what a level of ratinality you have, Is God’s punishment evil? where did you read that eh? God is merciful AND Just.
[/quote]

Dear inJESUS:

Then:

What made you to believe that:

[INDENT]This same God who is LOVE, His own creation man ( Who created him** “in His own image”** ) or atleast those Choosen Children of God (Jews) too are not evil because ‘Ye are Gods’ called your God while addressing to the Jews in Pslam 82 and also reffered by Jesus in John 10:34. [/INDENT]


#17

let me give you a serie of statements, you reply with yes/no agree?

1-God created Adam
2-God gave Adam freedom of choice
3-God does not want robots
4-God wants people who choose righteousness
5-Adam used the freedom God gave him
6-Adam’s freedom was agaisnt God’s wish
7-Adam’s choice was evil

People

1-God gave us freedom
2-we can choose good/evil
3-we always choose good

When you answer these questions, i hope you’ll get the meaning of original sin.


#18

[quote=inJESUS]Original sin is your tendancy toward evil instead of righteousness…
[/quote]

Aha…

Now let me ask you:

Is that the only tendency (of commiting evil) man is born with?


#19

[quote=freedomm]Dear inJESUS:

Then:

What made you to believe that:

[INDENT]This same God who is LOVE, His own creation man ( Who created him** “in His own image”** ) or atleast those Choosen Children of God (Jews) too are not evil because ‘Ye are Gods’ called your God while addressing to the Jews in Pslam 82 and also reffered by Jesus in John 10:34. [/INDENT]
[/quote]

what??


#20

[quote=freedomm]Aha…

Now let me ask you:

Is that the only tendency (of commiting evil) man is born with?
[/quote]

do you mean that we are born with many tendencies? yes so what? we are talking about good/evil or sinful/righteousness …please do not go off topic if thats what you meant.


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