Original Sin keeps going and going and going...


#1

Was Jesus meant to attone for our original sin. If so, why are the curses of child birth pains and toiling for bread still in effect today? And why do Christians believe that we are still born into original sin?


#2

Even with Jesus’ sacrifice making our peace with God so to speak, we are still left with the effect of Adam’s sin. so even the Mother of God suffered illness, old age and death.

It’s like this Valke. A guy commits murder which is a sin. He goes to jail and does his time. That is for the sin. But the children of the victim still have no father and the wife no husband. And the children of the murderer have a father who is not with them but in jail. Those are the effects.


#3

Does that mean that although we suffer the effects of original sin, we are no longer born with it? How does that benefit us?


#4

No. We are still born with Original Sin. It is through baptism that we lose our culpability. In other words, when we are baptised in Christ he atones to God for our original sin. We are now on good terms with God so to speak whereas before baptism no. But we have more to worry about than being on good terms with God- there are the effects-what the sin actually caused. The most important effect was to cut us off from God. Jesus erases that in his sacrifice and our baptism. But we are still left living with that which the sin caused otherwise.

Just as the courts convicting the murderer satisfies the state’s need for justice, but the victims are still left with the effect- no father no husband. Do you see? Justice has been served as far as the state goes as far as the actual act is concerned. But the effects of the act are not affected by the justice that was meted out.


#5

We are not born with Adam’s original sin but with the stain of original sin, the results of which are a wounded nature, a darkened intellect, and a weakened will. Baptism removes the stain but the effects remain–the wounded nature, etc. It is why Christians have to avail themselves of all the helps to God’s grace he gave us, particularly the sacraments Christ established which impart grace to our souls. It’s a life-long battle of the soul against, as Paul put it, “the world, the flesh, and the devil.” For the world is fallen, the flesh is weak, and the devil is always on the prowl seeking to destroy our relationship with God.


#6

Thanks for the explanation. I understand the concept now.
Here’s one of the problems I have with it: The rest of Genesis and Exodus is the sotry of God embracing his people, not of us being cut off from God.


#7

[right]JMJ + OBT[/right]

Valke2, I highly recommend you work through the Original Sin article in the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia.

Also, in Catholic theology it is important to keep in mind the distinction between the concepts of objective redemption and the subjective redemption as they relate to the reconciliation between God and mankind accomplished in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ; on that note, please see Parts E and F in the article St. Paul; the articles Redemption, Redemption in the Old Testament, Atonement, Sacrifice, and Reparation; and also the articles Salvation and Supernatural Adoption.

For a short Christian exposition of the “Old Testament period” in salvation history, please see the section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church which begins at paragraph #50 and continues to #64.

In the Hearts of Yeshua and Miriam.

IC XC NIKA


#8

So, if in baptism one is cleansed of Original Sin, then surely that means that we henceforth have the ability to sin no more. In other words, we are then capable of being morally perfect beings who have ceased to committ immoral acts?


#9

[right]JMJ + OBT[/right]

Well, sort of. Consider the following paragraphs taken from the beginning of Part III of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 1691 - 1696, 1700

1691 “Christian, recognize your dignity and, now that you share in God’s own nature, do not return to your former base condition by sinning. Remember who is your head and of whose body you are a member. Never forget that you have been rescued from the power of darkness and brought into the light of the Kingdom of God.”[1a]

1692 The Symbol of the faith confesses the greatness of God’s gifts to man in his work of creation, and even more in redemption and sanctification. What faith confesses, the sacraments communicate: by the sacraments of rebirth, Christians have become “children of God,”[2] “partakers of the divine nature.”[3] Coming to see in the faith their new dignity, Christians are called to lead henceforth a life “worthy of the gospel of Christ.”[4] They are made capable of doing so by the grace of Christ and the gifts of his Spirit, which they receive through the sacraments and through prayer.

1693 Christ Jesus always did what was pleasing to the Father,[5] and always lived in perfect communion with him. Likewise Christ’s disciples are invited to live in the sight of the Father “who sees in secret,”[6] in order to become “perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.”[7]

1694 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, Christians are “dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus” and so participate in the life of the Risen Lord.[8] Following Christ and united with him,[9] Christians can strive to be “imitators of God as beloved children, and walk in love”[10] by conforming their thoughts, words and actions to the “mind . . . which is yours in Christ Jesus,”[11] and by following his example.[12]

1695 “Justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God,”[13] “sanctified . . . [and] called to be saints,”[14] Christians have become the temple of the Holy Spirit.[15] This “Spirit of the Son” teaches them to pray to the Father[16] and, having become their life, prompts them to act so as to bear “the fruit of the Spirit”[17] by charity in action. Healing the wounds of sin, the Holy Spirit renews us interiorly through a spiritual transformation.[18] He enlightens and strengthens us to live as “children of light” through “all that is good and right and true.”[19]

1696 The way of Christ “leads to life”; a contrary way “leads to destruction.” The Gospel parable of the two ways remains ever present in the catechesis of the Church; it shows the importance of moral decisions for our salvation: “There are two ways, the one of life, the other of death; but between the two, there is a great difference.”[21]

1700 The dignity of the human person is rooted in his creation in the image and likeness of God (article 1); it is fulfilled in his vocation to divine beatitude (article 2). It is essential to a human being freely to direct himself to this fulfillment (article 3). By his deliberate actions (article 4), the human person does, or does not, conform to the good promised by God and attested by moral conscience (article 5). Human beings make their own contribution to their interior growth; they make their whole sentient and spiritual lives into means of this growth (article 6). With the help of grace they grow in virtue (article 7), avoid sin, and if they sin they entrust themselves as did the prodigal son[1b] to the mercy of our Father in heaven (article 8). In this way they attain to the perfection of charity.

1a St. Leo the Great, Sermo 22 in nat. Dom., 3:PL 54,192C.
2 Jn 1:12; 1 Jn 3:1.
3 2 Pet 1:4.
4 Phil 1:27.
5 Cf. Jn 8:29.
6 Mt 6:6.
7 Mt 5:48.
8 Rom 6:11 and cf. 6:5; cf. Col 2:12.
9 Cf. Jn 15:5.
10 Eph 5:1-2.
11 Phil 2:5.
12 Cf. Jn 13:12-16.
13 2 Cor 6:11.
14 1 Cor 1:2.
15 Cf. 1 Cor 6:19.
16 Cf. Gal 4:6.
17 Gal 5:22,25.
18 Cf. Eph 4:23.
19 Eph 5:8, 9.
20 Mt 7:13; cf. Deut 30:15-20.
21 Didache 1,1:SCh 248, 140.
1b Lk 15:11-32.

Does that help to paint a clearer picture?

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA


#10

well he did die 2 get us into heaven and the toiling 4 bread is caused by humans! because if we werent so selfish we could stop it but we dont and as for the childbirth pains they r started here in genesis 16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. now we r her descendants and we know that God does not lie so her descendants (us) must have childbirth pains becasue of Eve’s sin.


#11

Thanks. I read the para 50-64. If I understood it, it seems that we were not cut off from God.


#12

Toiling was also stated as a curse by God. So, like childbirth then, it should not be something we can correct.


#13

There was certainly some distance placed between God and humanity. The Scriptures are clear that God is calling humanity back to him.

The curse in the garden was not so much of a punishment by the way. It was a blessing.

[quote=Genesis 3:22]And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
[/quote]

God wasn’t punishing Adam and Eve by driving them out of the Garden.

God was protecting Adam and Eve by driving them out of the Garden.

It’s a matter of perspective. I guess.

Let us understand that God is a physician, and that suffering is a medicine for salvation, not a punishment for damnation.

Saint Augustine


#14

I wonder if procrastination is an effect of the original sin? :frowning:


#15

It sure is. :frowning:


#16

Dear Valke,

I would give a more positive response. Suffering and death have entered human history because of sin. But now, through Christ, they become a vehilce of Redemption. For now, the Redeemed person can unite his sufferings with Christ and merti graces for other’s spriitual benefit. Hence, something bad has now been turned into a weapon for GOOD. This is the greatest mystery. So even though we must yet suffer physically, etc, and die, we can unite our sufferings with Christ’s and merit graces for others. We can help Redeem humanity, love God and others in a manner that is greater than if we never sinned before.

I have a fuller article on this if you would like it here:
Meditation on Suffering.

In Love,
spauline


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