Original sin: knowledge?

When is accountability of a new born baby (Innocence, “like one of these” is heaven made up of) measured?

And when it is measured, does death set in?

Case in point: Adam was created like as a new born babe as did Eve.
Innocent, until…what…knowledge was gained?

Was this gaining of knowledge inevitable? Was death inevitable?

Could Adam and Eve ever know what it was to be like God if they could not have access to knowledge of good and evil?

Would disobedience be a way to describe the inevitability of gaining knowledge, thus bringing about separation from God, understood as spiritually death ?

And if the gaining of knowledge resulted in spiritual death, would God not provide a way to recoup that which was lost in the process?

If God did provide a way, a path back to life for us, would He not do it unconditionally?
After all, was it our fault that we are destined to gain knowledge after we are born in the flesh?

These are some questions that are geared for the more spiritually mature individuals whose faith is solidly grounded in the word, meaning Christ, and are confident enough to venture out of the norm without fear of loosing their salvation.

I would like to discuss this topic in relation to the differing religious beliefs and see if knowledge is not also at the root of their separation from the entity they understand as God.

A “Tree” has roots, trunk, branches and leaves.

A tree can also be said to be a Government, with roots as a foundation, a trunk a its visible standard of strength, it’s branches the offices and the leaves it’s employees.

If then the word tree represents something like I said above, would it be not like the governing body of heaven?

Was not the Tabernacle a replica of the heavenly temple?

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

The “tree of knowledge of good and evil” was then a necessary evil, if you will, in order for the intelligent ability of Adam to know what it was to be like God, in experiencing through pain and suffering, the value of goodness in the midst of an opposing force: the world.

Can we appreciate the gift (life) then, that is given unconditionally, with the privilege of experiencing life in the flesh, right or wrongly, without the penalty of eternal separation?

If you can, with all I’ve said above, then I believe you are solidly grounded on the heavenly “tree” of which God the Father is the roots, Jesus the Son the visible trunk (the standard) the branches, Jews and the leaves the church triumphant, the people.

Take it anywhere you like, let’s talk about it.

Blessings, AJ

AJ,
I like what you wrote. I think it makes a lot of sense. I hope many people read it. Thanks.:slight_smile:

If you are speaking about being omnipotent or omnipresence like God then no, our mortality prevents that analogy, but if you mean having the power of choosing between good and evil then I think the answer is Adam and Eve already had it before they disobeyed God.

Would disobedience be a way to describe the inevitability of gaining knowledge, thus bringing about separation from God, understood as spiritually death ?

I don’t think so as I understand the question.

And if the gaining of knowledge resulted in spiritual death, would God not provide a way to recoup that which was lost in the process?

It was the prideful act of disobedience not any knowledge gained from it, so I don’t see it as anything being lost as much as willingly discarded.

If God did provide a way, a path back to life for us, would He not do it unconditionally?
After all, was it our fault that we are destined to gain knowledge after we are born in the flesh?

We are rational human beings created in the image of God, and as such God would not withhold knowledge from rational beings, but God reserved for Himself the choice of what is good and what is evil to/for us. God did reconcile humanity to Himslef unconditionally through Christ.

Can we appreciate the gift (life) then, that is given unconditionally, with the privilege of experiencing life in the flesh, right or wrongly, without the penalty of eternal separation?

No, human life is not unconditional, it is a gift and by simply referencing the two greatest Commandments we know of our minimal obligations.

Take it anywhere you like, let’s talk about it.

Blessings, AJ

It is what we do with the knowledge, not the information itself.

Would you like to discuss any particular points?

Blessings, AJ

If you are speaking about being omnipotent or omnipresence like God then no, our mortality prevents that analogy, but if you mean having the power of choosing between good and evil then I think the answer is Adam and Eve already had it before they disobeyed God.

Yes, I am speaking about the power to choose. The question has to be asked, how can there be a choice on knowledge of something that is not first known?

I don’t think so as I understand the question.

Separation was due to having gained the knowledge of good and evil as stated in the bible by “the day you eat you shall die”, meaning spiritual death verses disobedience being the cause for the separation?

It was the prideful act of disobedience not any knowledge gained from it, so I don’t see it as anything being lost as much as willingly discarded.

What is the first thing that comes with the ability to make choices, especially in an environment conducive to lusts of the flesh? Pride?
So it is a natural element of the flesh to want, and add the ability to choose, only makes for a selfish, greedy individual checked only by knowledge of Godly principles.

So what was lost, in full knowledge of God in the creation process, was the soul of humanity.
This was a given because of knowledge, of good and evil, and the ability for the human to have intelligence.
The bible agrees by this verse:Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
We are rational human beings created in the image of God, and as such God would not withhold knowledge from rational beings, but God reserved for Himself the choice of what is good and what is evil to/for us. God did reconcile humanity to Himslef unconditionally through Christ.

Did Jesus not say:Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?
Unless God reveals things to us about Him, He will remain a mystery.

No, human life is not unconditional, it is a gift and by simply referencing the two greatest Commandments we know of our minimal obligations.

Perhaps you misunderstood my statement, granting of eternal life by the blood sacrifice of Jesus came to us unconditionally.
In which case means that eternal life is granted us regardless of who or what we are.

It is what we do with the knowledge, not the information itself.

It is both. The mere gaining of knowledge makes us like God, thus independent thinkers, and then the doing something with it, hopefully for the good.

Adam knew no evil, therefore could not decide good from evil, so the day he gained knowledge of good and evil, that day he died.

Blessings, AJ

AJ,
Mormonism teaches that Eve realized that knowledge of good and evil was necessary for her and Adam’s progress, and she was willing to undergo pain, suffering, and death (even though she couldn’t really conceive what those words meant, having never experienced them) in order to begin that path of progress. Satan thought he was interrupting and defeating Heavenly Father’s plan for this earth and for His spirit children to progress, but in actuality Satan was tempting Eve with something that was indeed a step in the right direction for Eve and for Adam, because they otherwise would have remained innocent and not known good or evil as you have suggested. “Good” can only be chosen if “evil” is also a choice, as you noted.

Spiritual death was a consequence, but I think we differ as to the “way back to life” being “unconditional”. It is “free” for all humankind, but Mormonism doesn’t consider it “unconditional”. The “way back to life” is provided by Jesus Christ and by the Holy Ghost. Jesus Christ suffered the eternal consequences of all of our wrong choices, so that we don’t have to suffer those eternal consequences, but we need to access the benefits of that suffering by repenting, entering into the covenant of baptism, and then being “baptized by fire” through the presence of the Holy Ghost in our lives.

Thus, when we have the presence of the Holy Ghost in our lives, we are no longer “separated” from God and we have entered a promised pathway back to the physical presence of God the Father and of Jesus Christ. That pathway is unconditionally promised to all humankind, but we have to choose to get on it and then stay on it.

What is unconditional is definitely the fact that all humankind will receive the free gift of resurrection from physical death. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Thanks for sharing your insights. I was intrigued by your ideas about the “tree.” We believe there were two symbolic trees, one being the “tree of life.” We can eventually eat the fruit of the tree of life, which will bring eternal joy and eternal love, but it is a long process to get there, and it is only through Christ that we can do it, in the life to come.

It was not a choice on knowledge itself, it was a choice to obey God or not.

Separation was due to having gained the knowledge of good and evil as stated in the bible by “the day you eat you shall die”, meaning spiritual death verses disobedience being the cause for the separation?

I disagree. Only the act of disobedience seperated us from God.

What is the first thing that comes with the ability to make choices, especially in an environment conducive to lusts of the flesh? Pride?
So it is a natural element of the flesh to want, and add the ability to choose, only makes for a selfish, greedy individual checked only by knowledge of Godly principles.

“The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty; a sin of pride. This rebellion is described in concrete terms as the transgression of an express command of God for which the text uses the image of a forbidden fruit.”

So what was lost, in full knowledge of God in the creation process, was the soul of humanity.
This was a given because of knowledge, of good and evil, and the ability for the human to have intelligence.

Our purity was lost then in that sense- we sinned.

The bible agrees by this verse:Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Sin is not compatible with God.

Did Jesus not say:Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?
Unless God reveals things to us about Him, He will remain a mystery.

God’s mystery is different from Earths mystery.

Genesis 11:6

[quote]The LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them

.
It wasn’t the knowlege men gained to build the tower of Babel that was offensive to God, it was the reason they wanted the knowledge:

4 And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves,

[/quote]

Perhaps you misunderstood my statement, granting of eternal life by the blood sacrifice of Jesus came to us unconditionally.
In which case means that eternal life is granted us regardless of who or what we are.

True, it is granted to humans regardless of who and what we are with respect to Jew or Gentile, but obedience to God is still required to receive it.

It is both. The mere gaining of knowledge makes us like God, thus independent thinkers, and then the doing something with it, hopefully for the good.

I disagree agian. Having knowledge or being independent thinkers does not make us like God in the least. Thinking we know right from wrong makes us think we are like God, and that isn’t true either since human history shows we aren’t very good at that determination, which I think reflects the reason God reserved it for Himself.

Adam knew no evil, therefore could not decide good from evil, so the day he gained knowledge of good and evil, that day he died.

Blessings, AJ

Adam did not die that day and was not immediately given knowledge like the Scarecrow did in the Wizard of Oz. Adam acted contrary to God’s will- that was all he needed to know.

Parker D

Mormonism teaches that Eve realized that knowledge of good and evil was necessary for her and Adam’s progress, and she was willing to undergo pain, suffering, and death (even though she couldn’t really conceive what those words meant, having never experienced them) in order to begin that path of progress.

It’s a good way to look at it, but I believe it was inevitable, meaning that it was designed plan.
If one thinks about it, without knowledge of good and evil, there is no interpretational, discretional ability to give a judgment, or plainly speaking, be like as God.

…”Satan thought he was interrupting and defeating Heavenly Father’s plan for this earth and for His spirit children to progress, but in actuality Satan was tempting Eve with something that was indeed a step in the right direction for Eve and for Adam…”,

My understanding of the serpent is an added element to the story to make the story simple for humanity to understand, but for humanity to mature spiritually to where the real understanding of what the serpent really meant is reserved to granting’s by the Holy Spirit.

…”Spiritual death was a consequence, but I think we differ as to the “way back to life” being “unconditional”…

It’s OK to differ and I am not in this to persuade anybody, but only to present my views.

The way back has to, in light of the inability of the human specie to save self from eternal separation, be unconditional to all humanity.

The option was not given to all those before Christ to believe in Christ for they lived and died without even a mention of “a” savior, much less the Christ.

The option is given though after Christ that allows us to enter into His presence while yet in the flesh and not have to wait till the death of the body.

I say option; because not everybody can attain it, for all over the world are people of different beliefs and many don’t even believe in Jesus.

I base my understanding on the one verse than along with the rest of the bible as a whole reveals the work of God in our behalf: Romans 8:20.

Key word there is “subjected”.

…”Mormonism doesn’t consider it “unconditional”. The “way back to life” is provided by Jesus Christ and by the Holy Ghost. Jesus Christ suffered the eternal consequences of all of our wrong choices, so that we don’t have to suffer those eternal consequences, but we need to access the benefits of that suffering by repenting, entering into the covenant of baptism, and then being “baptized by fire” through the presence of the Holy Ghost in our lives”…

That view by me is acceptable.

…”Thus, when we have the presence of the Holy Ghost in our lives, we are no longer “separated” from God and we have entered a promised pathway back to the physical presence of God the Father and of Jesus Christ. That pathway is unconditionally promised to all humankind, but we have to choose to get on it and then stay on it.”…

Christianity considers that “being born again” of which I am a born again believer, promised eternal life because life is in me now, of which I am exercising my option.

…”What is unconditional is definitely the fact that all humankind will receive the free gift of resurrection from physical death. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”…

I can see why Mormon’s believe the physical caring of the body in stages, but here’s my view: We are promised a body, we do not know what it shall be, as Paul said, but it will be a spiritual body housing the spiritual you, who you are.

When the vessel of clay (noted for Eve)was formed it lack spirit (noted for Adam) to become alive, thus the marriage, making of two, one living soul.

The spirit of Adam died, yet Eve continued to live out life till the physical died. Had it remained that way till today, none of us would have a prayer of ever going to be with God.

Therefore, the tree of Life, meaning the word of life, meaning Jesus, came to grant life to the dead Adam, yet the Eve still dies.

A heavenly body is then prepared for us to house our true selfs: 1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

…”Thanks for sharing your insights. I was intrigued by your ideas about the “tree.” We believe there were two symbolic trees, one being the “tree of life.” We can eventually eat the fruit of the tree of life, which will bring eternal joy and eternal love, but it is a long process to get there, and it is only through Christ that we can do it, in the life to come.

[RIGHT][RIGHT] [/RIGHT][/RIGHT]
The tree of life is Jesus withheld from our ancestors (Adam) till God at a predetermined time in human history chose to real Himself through Jesus.

The process is not long at all, in my understanding; it is immediate upon one’s placing complete faith in the saving grace of Jesus that a rebirth of a dead spirit is resurrected to new life in Christ.

The rest is up to us to work out this so wonderful a salvation to the glory of God.

I see your waiting for my response so here goes.

Blessings, AJ

Verisimilitude

… “It was not a choice on knowledge itself, it was a choice to obey God or not”…

You’re correct on the first half of your sentence, and the second part can only be exercised after first gaining the knowledge of.

“…I disagree. Only the act of disobedience separated us from God”…

That is true to, but originally, separation was a result of , as the story goes, eating of the tree that is attributed to disobedience.,

Let’s ask the question: Are we responsible for Adam’s disobedience? Yes….No?

I am not accountable for what ever Adam did, but I am accountable to my self and to God for the actions I take after first gaining knowledge of good and evil.

In that respect, all of humanity falls under the same condition Adam and Eve did, which for the story, was disobedience.

…“The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty; a sin of pride. This rebellion is described in concrete terms as the transgression of an express command of God for which the text uses the image of a forbidden fruit.”…

Yes, attacks on the sovergnty only as a result of another being, being like God, in His image.
One of the two had to die, for there can be only but one God, and surely, God will not die.
But hope for the one that did die, was in Jesus which is why there is only one name under heaven by which mankind can be saved: Jesus.

… “Our purity was lost then in that sense- we sinned”…

The innocence of a new born baby is lost at the age of accountability, of which when that occurs, life has to be sought out.

…” Sin is not compatible with God.”…
…” God’s mystery is different from Earths mystery”…

Truly, stated.

…”True, it is granted to humans regardless of who and what we are with respect to Jew or Gentile, but obedience to God is still required to receive it”…

We can not say “granted in the same sentence with “obedience” by adding requirement.

Granted means unconditional, where obedience is conditional.

The first is granted (unconditional) so the second (obedience) can have the power to achieve.
We are made undeniably in the image of God, making us individuals with choice.

What we think or do is to our own accountability.

…” Adam did not die that day and was not immediately given knowledge like the Scarecrow did in the Wizard of Oz. Adam acted contrary to God’s will- that was all he needed to know…”

You’re right, Adam physically did not die that day, but spiritually, he did.

Had knowledge of the tree of life being afforded him then, he would have reached for it and live forever, much like you have done today, reaching out to Jesus.

Blessings, AJ

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