OSAS/Calvinism/Armenianism (Again)


#1

This is the part I don’t get in protestant theology. If they were never saved in the first place, then they were denied any of God’s graces, which would have helped them live a life of grace and get to Heaven.
Since none of us know what we will do in the future then OSAS simply cannot be applicable.
Imagine the worst case scenario you can think of. Losing a child, or even your whole family as some poor souls have had to endure. You simply cannot say that you wouldn’t fall away from God, deny Him, so to speak.
According to you that means they were never saved, which I repeat, means that they never had God’s grace to get through that trial.
If they were saved, but spend the rest of their lives rejecting God and all of His teachings, you still say they get to Heaven?
That is way out there.


Sacred Traditions That Supposedly Contradict The Bible
#2

If they were saved, but spend the rest of their lives rejecting God and all of His teachings, you still say they get to Heaven?

That’s the main question I asked and I never got an answer. Well, newbie, once again.

How do I get saved? By accepting Christ as my Lord and Saviour?

OK, let’s say one does that. He accepts him but after few month something changes and becomes an atheist. Latter on he even becomes a criminal who no longer cares about God. Hmmm, possible even becomes a Satanist. Will this person go to Heaven?

You have only one option here: Yes he will. He was saved because he accepted Jesus Christ. That’s it. He is done and he can “enjoy” this life as the greatest sinner and Antichrist!

If you say no then the initial premise is wrong. You are not saved by simply accepting Jesus.

How is it then? Please explain.


#3

One that permanently falls away was never saved…as in the parable of the sower, the word/seed fell on rocky soil or seed was fruitless with the cares and pleasures of this life choking it out. They did not receive the word in submission to Christ as Lord becoming a disciple and follower of him. Repentance must be in the heart of the individual who hears and believes the gospel and it is all a work of God…repentance and faith.

Luke 8:11-15 KJV 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Scriptures that affirm this…

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 John 2:19 KJV 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


Sacred Traditions That Supposedly Contradict The Bible
#4

Election - Calvinism

Romans 9:10-22 KJV 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

That is the most straightforward and longest passage of scripture outlining the doctrine of election. On the other hand, Arminianism is done away with in scripture.

1 John 5:4 KJV 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Perseverance is an evidence of salvation and also a means but both ordained of God. The Bible says in these passages - once saved always saved. Whoever is truly born again will endure to the end and overcome through Christ - because greater is He that is in him than he that is in the world…If God is for us - who can be against us. So, Arminiamism is shot down in scripture…

Then how do we know?? Well, scripture says we can know. Then why do you not want us to know???

1 John 5:13 KJV 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

John 5:24 KJV 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John even says it of him and of those he is writing to…

1 John 5:19 KJV 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

I know that I am of God…I am trusting in Christ as my Lord and my Savior. I am not putting faith in my faith (which is what you seem to be leaning towards)…my faith and my eyes are on Christ and Him alone for my salvation.


#5

Link, In many of Paul’s, John’s, and Peter’s letters, they are addressed to those that have been saved (as you put it - Catholics would call this “brought into the Church”, the first part of the process of Salvation). These authors are constantly urging their members to persevere, to not turn to sin.

Why would they be worried about this if they were permanently saved?


#6

We are commanded to persevere but it is also promised that we will…I will liken it to this in Acts 27…

They are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

That is like the decree in 1 John 5:4 - You will be saved - I promise you…God is sovereign and has predestined this to occur. So, does that mean everyone just sits back and lets God do everything?? No, look what then happens…

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. We trust him. We are commanded to persevere…But then, God says that we will if we have been born of God…Why…because he ordained it from the foundation of the world…

Ephesians 2:10 KJV 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God has ordained the means and the end - you can say this for the prophecies in scripture that needed to come to pass.


#7

**Perseverance is an evidence of salvation and also a means but both ordained of God. The Bible says in these passages - once saved always saved. Whoever is truly born again will endure to the end and overcome through Christ - because greater is He that is in him than he that is in the world…If God is for us - who can be against us. So, Arminiamism is shot down in scripture…

Then how do we know?? Well, scripture says we can know. Then why do you not want us to know???**
But you cannot know if you will/did persevere until your life is over. You cannot know if you, or someone else, have “permanently” fallen away until death comes. Soooo…we’re back to the same problem. Your life may have had a visible change, but does that mean the change is permanent? You cannot know unless you also want to claim some righteousness/holiness greater than mere mortals, which would then make you divine. We all have a fallen nature, and we all have those buttons that could be pressed that will bring us to the brink. Some of us will fall over, some will not. Some will fall and return later in life.
And I’ve still not received an answer to explain how someone who truly wasn’t saved in the first place even had a snowball’s chance in you-know-where? They think/act/behave like their saved until that great trial comes, and they fall. How cruel that they should not have been given God’s grace in the first place, when they desired it. But God denied them this because in His Divine Foreknowledge He knew they wouldn’t make the cut? This is not the God of Scripture!


#8

Again…what does the Bibles say…you have ignored that we can know that we HAVE eternal life. You have seemingly written these scriptures off…

1 John 5:13 KJV 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 4:13 KJV 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Again…John says…

1 John 5:19 KJV 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Why do you deny these scriptures??

Hebrews 10:14 KJV 14 For by one offering **he hath perfected for ever **them that are sanctified.

Also…I do claim a righteousness that is not my own and that is the righteousness of Christ…

Romans 10:3 KJV 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 5:19 KJV 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Declared righteous - justified in the sight of God…and becoming more righteous by the inner working of the Spirit by the Word of God in sanctification. I have imputed righteousness (justification) and am being saved through imparted righteousness (sanctification) - and will be saved in being removed from the body of this death - this wretched man that I am (glorification). I have know righteousness of my own.

Speaking to another part of your posting…

Proverbs 24:16 KJV 16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Psalms 37:23-24 KJV 23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

God’s sovereign election will handle the last part of your posting in Romans 9 (see my posting above)…

I will quote a couple of things from there…

Is there unrighteousness with God???
Who are you that repliest against God???


#9

Am I being unclear? Perhaps my fellow Catholics can set me straight or help clarify my question.
You can rattle off Scripture 'til the cows come home, but how do you know you are one of the saved?
How is it that you know your own future? or the future of another person who believes in Jesus Christ as Savior?
And how is it that someone who is not saved in the first place ever had a chance? Is it your position that God made some men and destined them for damnation? Is damnation not the logical consequence of never having received the saving grace of God?


#10

The Bible does indeed preach that we have eternal life but we can loose our salvation. Paul often say that we must persevere to the end.

How do we lose our salvation? We can lose it when we sin.

1 John 5:13 KJV 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 4:13 KJV 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

“the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet and bring the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and make merry; for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to make merry.”

Jesus is telling this parable about salvation. The son was a member of the household but “squandered his inheritance.” The son was “dead.” Upon returning in repentance to the household, the son is “alive again.”

“My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

This verse has to be read along side John 17:7-12 which reads, “Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,” My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.”

Please be advised that this verse does not support OSAS. This verse was written by John for the express purpose of warning Christian believers about false teachers that have gone out in the spirit of anti-Christ. It simply does not support OSAS. If anything it denies it. Let’s look at the verse in context.

I assumed you believe in OSAS.


#11

You can lose your salvation,

1 John 2: 24-25
Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

2 John 9-11
Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work.

James 5: 19-20
My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

2 Peter 1: 10-11
Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 2: 20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

Matthew 7: 13-15
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Romans 11: 20-21
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.


#12

But both sides are self-assured that it is biblically supported.


#13

We know that we are saved by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit gives us conviction.
The Holy Spirit guides us.
There are gifts of the Spirit that we receive when we are saved.
There are fruits of the Spirit.
Sure some people backslide and fall away from their faith, sometimes for decades.
But the ones who are saved will always give testimony that the Holy Spirit was ALWAYS calling them back.
So even though they were backslidden, the Holy Spirit was there giving them conviction to come back into the flock.
That is how we know we are saved.


#14

Correction, it should read “protestant theologies…”

Generalizing about protestant theology is unfair to each individual faith, and takes away their freedom of coming up with their own interpretation. :slight_smile:


#15

God wills us ALL to be saved. The Holy Spirit calls us all back, even those who have slipped and never EVER return. God is calling all of us, but only some of us answer His call, and yet the call continues.

What you are saying smells like Pre-Destination.


#16

I can only speak for the people who were called and gave me testimony of the call. I can’t speak for people who never returned and died in their sin. That would be presumptuous


#17

I just want to know one thing from the Once Savce Always Saved people. Paul in the scriptures tell us to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”.

If you know that you are saved and can’t be lost how do you OBEY what Paul said? And if you’re saved ONLY by faith how do you OBEY Paul and the Bible and “WORK OUT” your salvation and not only do that but also OBEY Paul and the Bible and do that with “FEAR and TREMBLING”?

Either you have blessed assurance and there’s no need to worry about losing your salvation OR

Paul is telling us to do something that is in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to that!

You can’t have it both ways!

In my opinion Once Saved Always Saved is a crock because if it were true Paul wouldn’t tell us to do something that would VIOLATE that concept!

It is true that God chooses the Elect. Catholics agree with that statement. But Catholics also believe that only God knows who those people are.

And God helps the Elect persevere but does so without Ever violating man’s free will!

The second one takes the Once Saved Always Saved attitude–they are in effect saying "I don’t have to obey Paul and the Bible and “Work out my salvation with fear and trembling” because I am already saved and I can’t be lost!

Now many Once Saved Always Saved believers will tell you that if someone totally turns away from God that they never had God in the first place! They say that to justify their PRESUMPTION in their own salvation which is in itself a mortal sin!

What they’re really saying by saying that is that God changes a person so much with the New Birth in Christ that He makes them incapable of turning away.

If you believe that you either believe that God reduces human beings to the level of animals who can’t make choices for or against God or you believe that God who as the scriptures say “Is love” and elsewhere where the scriptures say “Love does not demand its own way”–that that God violates those words and does DEMAND that believers do not have the freedom of will to choose against Him after salvation!

Or if they do that He doesn’t care how many times they choose against Him the only thing that matters is a one time instantaneous only belief in Him–in other words TRANSFORMATION of the human soul AFTER conversion is something that God isn’t concerned about!

All of this is of course UNTRUE! While Satan cannot as John says “SNATCH believers out of Jesus’ hand”–the all loving Jesus never grips His children so tightly that they can not on their own CHOOSE to leave His hand.

The bondage of those who are initially converted and saved to forever choose God is UNTRUE because God loves us so much that He allows us to have freedom of will after salvation–just like Adam and Eve had freedom of will in the Garden of Eden.

God has not changed–He does not change us into Puppets after conversion–Once saved always saved is a lie!


#18

OK, I can be presumptuous, and tell you with full confidence taht God wills all of us to achieve Salvation. When we stumble and fall, He calls us back. Some answer the call, some never do.

Why the presumptiousness(?), because the Church tells me this is so.


#19

The Catholic church teaches that Jesus died for ALL men not only the Elect as the Calvinists believe.

That was God’s ULTIMATE will that everyone would be saved.

But since man sins it is God’s CIRCUMSTANTIAL will that some will resist grace or raise an impediment to it as St. Thomas Aquinas says and will not persevere till the end.

But it is also God’s circumstantial will that others who do raise impediments to his grace–and yes people can raise impediments to God’s grace even AFTER conversion–it is his circumstantial will that those people if they die in a state of mortal sin are allowed to go to Hell because He loves them enough to give the freedom of will to exercise that choice!

God ELECTS man–but man chooses Hell.

God grants perseverence to the Elect but we can never know if we are the Elect or not–all we can do is do as Paul says and “Work out our salvation with fear and trembling” until death in a state of grace and trust in God.

Some persevere. Some like Judas are CHOSEN by Christ and CHOOSE to die in a state of mortal sin!

Jesus said “It would be better for that man if he had never been born.” Jesus would not say that about Judas if Judas was Just Saved Always Saved.

Christ CHOSE Judas and Judas did not Persevere!

The same thing could happen to any of us because God loves us enough to CHOOSE us but not to MAKE us follow Him.

When God PREDESTINES people as the scriptures say he does it because He is beyond all of time and has perfect FOREKNOWLEDGE of How people will choose and that in no way MAKES them choose either this way or that OR MAKES God decide depending on their choices.

How does that work? Say the Dallas Cowboys are playing a high school team tomorrow. I say that the Dallas Cowboys will win. They play the game and Dallas wins easily. My knowing that that would happen didn’t MAKE Dallas play good enough to win OR the high school team play bad enough to loose.

Each side exercised their freedom of will and the outcome came just as I predicted.

Now if I with my limited knowledge can predict something as easy as that–how perfectly can God PREDICT our choices since He knows everything BUT YET STILL not violate our freedom of will?

And since God does posses such knowledge–Him exercising it before the creation of the universe and Predestining the Elect by providing them with the necessary grace because He can forsee their choices and can SAVE them without MAKING THEM BE SAVED against their will-that in no way means that our choices dictate our salvation in the sense that what we choose forces God’s hand> He is ahead of us-- we aren’t ahead of Him!

We don’t either choose God or choose against Him–we either surrender our will which is a positive NOTHING and God saves us or we choose against Him and He lets us go to Hell!

It’s not either us choosing for God or against God–it’s either us doing NOTHING or choosing against God.

God does all the saving. God predestines without ever MAKING us do things that are against our will and yet God still saves us when we do nothing and LET Him save us.

Salvation only from God through grace–predestination yet total freedom of will! The chance of Persevering or falling away and God being the author of perservation without violating our freedom of will-and yet letting us choose Hell if that is how we choose to exercise our freedom of will but in no way changing God from accomplishing what He wants to with the Elect.

How can God do all of that and at the same time want us to “Work out our salvation with fear and trembling”? Because God is God. Who can know His ways?

We can be as little children and do what He says. If we do that after our deaths and when we are perfectly holy after purgatory or without it if we are already saints we can join the Elect.

It will all be because of God. WE will have lived lives of trembling perseverence without ONCE Presuming that we were worthy and He will welcome us into His House!


#20

Hey Jerry-Jet,
Your posts are awesome! (yours, too, NotWorthy, but I’ve never read any of JJ’s before)
Thanks for teaching me how to further clarify the Truth to my loved ones.
God bless,


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