OT Sacrifices, NT Confession, and the Cross


#1

Hello,

I am a Catholic, and I love the Church. However, a question popped into my head recently, and I hope someone can answer it. In the Old Testament people sacrificed animals to atone for their sins or they went to hell, correct? And now in the Catholic Church, people go to Confession to confess mortal sin(s) or they go to hell, correct? So, I am wondering what Christ accomplished by dying on the cross. I hope I explained that clearly, not that my statements are accurate!

Thank you,

Warren


#2

You’re incorrect. In the Old Testament, people made sacrifices to atone for sin, but when they died they still went to Hell. The righteous went to the “bosom of Abraham” also known as the “Limbo of the Fathers”, which was not a place of punishment, but was a place of separation from God, and hence was part of Hell.

This is because the old sacrifices could not truly clean sin away, and Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross did. Now, you go to Confession and Confess your sin, and through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross it is truly clean away and gone, leaving your soul spotless and able to enter Heaven.

No doubt a more thorough answer (correcting simplifications here) will follow.


#3

=Wojo555;10803044]Hello,

I am a Catholic, and I love the Church. However, a question popped into my head recently, and I hope someone can answer it. In the Old Testament people sacrificed animals to atone for their sins or they went to hell, correct? And now in the Catholic Church, people go to Confession to confess mortal sin(s) or they go to hell, correct? So, I am wondering what Christ accomplished by dying on the cross. I hope I explained that clearly, not that my statements are accurate!

Thank you,

Warren

GREAT question. THANKS

1st. Keeep in mind that God’s ways are NOT mans ways.Isaiah) 55:8-9"For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts"

What God found acceptable TO God in the OT was overriden in the NT because of GRACE flowing through the Passion of Christ One time Perfect Sacrificet.

In the OT the sacrifices BY A PRIEST only “covered over sins”; but did not forgive them.**Lev.6:7 **“and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

**They were forgiven eventhough their sins were ONLY covered over. And God accepted that less than PERFECT action of His OT priest **

Christ Instituted the Sacrament of Confession as the ONLY [normal] way He, God WOULD forgive sin in the NT because of GRACE. Romans 6:14 “For sin shall not [MEANS "ought not!] have dominion over you; for you are not under the law, but under grace.”

Christ continues the use of HIS priest under the New Covenant as is most often essental to our salvation obligations for several reasons:

Its embarrasing to admit our faults to The Priest AND therefore GOOD for our humility’

Doing so is intended to lesson our desire to sin again, KNOWING that we must Confess them to His Priest

The Priest is trained to offer Spiritual advice on HOW to AVOID with God’s Grace, these sins again

We are ASSURED; Guarenteed forgiveness WHEN His Priest says “I ABSOLVE YOU IN THE NAME OF THE Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghoast” [NOT “I forgive you”]

John 20: 19-23 **
Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews,
Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you**. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

Take note that TWICE Jesus PROCLAIMS: "**[MY] PEACE TO YOU! ** This is highly signifiant because PEACE [our own inner peace is also the GOAL of the Sacrament of known forgivness! NOT GUESSING; NOT SIMPLY HOPING; BUT ACTUALLY KNOWING:D THAT WE HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN.

[COLOR=“red”]The Cross made possible by the sheding of Christ Blood the POSSIBILITY-conditioanlly that our sins Could and WOULD be forgiven God’s way.

God Bless you,
Pat/PJM
.


#4

[quote="PJM, post:3, topic:327894"]
GREAT question. THANKS

1st. Keeep in mind that God's ways are NOT mans ways.Isaiah) 55:8-9"For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts"

What God found acceptable TO God in the OT was overriden in the NT because of GRACE flowing through the Passion of Christ One time Perfect Sacrificet.

In the OT the sacrifices BY A PRIEST only "covered over sins"; but did not forgive them.*Lev.6:7 *“and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

*They were forgiven eventhough their sins were ONLY covered over. And God accepted that less than PERFECT action of His OT priest *

Christ Instituted the Sacrament of Confession as the ONLY [normal] way He, God WOULD forgive sin in the NT because of GRACE. Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not *[MEANS "ought not!]* have dominion over you; for you are not under the law, but under grace."

Christ continues the use of HIS priest under the New Covenant as is most often essental to our salvation obligations for several reasons:

Its embarrasing to admit our faults to The Priest AND therefore GOOD for our humility'

Doing so is intended to lesson our desire to sin again, KNOWING that we must Confess them to His Priest

The Priest is trained to offer Spiritual advice on HOW to AVOID with God's Grace, these sins again

We are ASSURED; Guarenteed forgiveness WHEN His Priest says "I ABSOLVE YOU IN THE NAME OF THE Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghoast" [NOT "I forgive you"]

John 20: 19-23 **
Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews,
Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you*. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. **He said therefore to them again: *Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.When he had said this, **he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. **Whose sins you shall **forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

Take note that TWICE Jesus PROCLAIMS: "[MY] PEACE TO YOU! This is highly signifiant because PEACE [our own inner peace is also the GOAL of the Sacrament of known forgivness! NOT GUESSING; NOT SIMPLY HOPING; BUT ACTUALLY KNOWING:D THAT WE HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN.

[COLOR="red"]The Cross made possible by the sheding of Christ Blood the POSSIBILITY-conditioanlly that our sins Could and WOULD be forgiven God's way.

[/quote]

God Bless you,
Pat/PJM
.

so i guess you are saying that Jesus instituted the priest hood-- so people could be embarresed about their sins?

and get advice from a priest how to avoid then??

and here i thought the Holy Spirit was to help me--

i guess 1 john 1 :9 should read "if you confess your sins (2 a priest) then God is faithful and just to forgive you

or something like that-- how about masterbation ?-- that's a common sin on this forum.

LOL


#5

Instead of mocking him, could you perhaps show us where he went wrong…biblically speaking?? Yes 1 Jn 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he forgives us, I fail to see how that excludes confession to a priest. It seems to imply it in fact. It definitely shows the necessity of confessing our sins. There’s no forgiveness without it according to John here.

The Holy Spirit does help us, and one of the ways he does is through the sacraments. It not either/or in Catholicism. We don’t believe God is against working through human instruments. And neither do you if you are honest.
When you came to believe in Christ, was it because someone, your parents or your pastor perhaps, proclaimed the Gospel to you? Or was it the Holy Spirit helping you? The obvious answer is both! There’s no contradiction at all my friend.

Christ choosing to use human instruments to effect his healing grace in the Sacrament of Penance is the same exact situation. And yes, maybe one of the side effects is an increase in humility. Can’t see why thats a bad thing. Christ is God, He created us. He knows what we need. We are physical beings as well as spiritual. And it’s very relieving for me to hear those words “I absolve you of your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Go in peace.” It’s literally the most freeing sentence in the world. And it’s all from Jesus!! Its God Who’s doing it, but He uses the priest as His minister. This is the method He himself set up for us, because He knows what we need.

In the end all I can say is don’t mock it till you’ve tried it. :thumbsup:


#6

=fredplont;10803312]so i guess you are saying that Jesus instituted the priest hood-- so people could be embarresed about their sins?

and get advice from a priest how to avoid then??

and here i thought the Holy Spirit was to help me–

i guess 1 john 1 :9 should read "if you confess your sins (2 a priest) then God is faithful and just to forgive you

or something like that-- how about masterbation ?-- that’s a common sin on this forum.

LOL

My FRIEND:)

Being dubious is rather common these days.

What I shared was not mine[although I Do believe and practice it]; it is a GIFT from our God. A Gift of Love, which like grace itself can be denied, or ignored. So what YOU do with God’s Truth [singular] is between the two of you.:rolleyes:

Now as to John 1:9

DID YOU KNOW?
That there is only One INFALLIBLE rule for right understanding of Gods WORDS: Here it is [in caps for emphasis; NOT shouting]:smiley:

NEVER, EVER CAN, MAY OR DOES ONE VERSE; PASSAGE OR TEACHING MAKE VOID ANOTHER VERSE; PASSAGE OR TEACHING. Such even as a possibility [its NOT!]; would render the bible as worthlress.

here’s why:

Matthew 4:4 “Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God” 2nd. Tim. 3:16 “All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice” John 12: 48-49 He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.”

Some advice from A “Great Grandpa”

Truth just like God is One [singular]

Therefore God’s truth [must also be singular]

God; both Good and Perfect simply cannot hold differing views; MANY even contradictory
Like OSAS; the Sinners prayer; Faith alone, which are not supportablw when using the ENTIRE Bible AND the “Rule.”

As for masturbation; like any and all adictive actions; they DO require God; God’s Grace; the Holy Spirit’s intervention. BUT it absoutely requires 1. Our humility 2. Our prayerful request 3. Accepting and appying the Offfered Grace fully and correctly. These Very serious issues cannot be conquared alone. THAT DEAR FRIEND was God’s Perfect understanding in creating the Sacrament of Confession. God isn’t likely to speak directly to you; BUT HIS Priest On HIS Behalf can:thumbsup:

God Bless you and THANKS for your post!

Pat/PJM


#7

Basics: Matthew 18:15-19. John 20:22-23. James 5:16. Learn the bible. Learn the faith.


#8

Good question to ask! Not many people notice this subtlety

The animal sacrifices were only a symbolic atonement for sins, foreshadowing the perfect sacrifice of Christ.

The righteous of the Old Testament could not make it to heaven, because the “gates were closed”. They were held in the “Bosom of Abraham” (speculated to be either purgatory or similar to purgatory) where they waited for Christ’s sacrifice.

According to the Apostle’s Creed, Christ “died and descended into hell”, meaning he went down to the “Bosom of Abraham”, and freed the righteous so that they could enter heaven. Christ then gave the “keys” to the “gates of heaven” to Saint Peter, the first Pope, so that the Priests within the Catholic Church could forgive sins and allow people access to heaven!

So animal sacrifices were not equivalent to sacramental confession. They foreshadowed a time when sins could truly be forgiven!


#9

[quote="runningdude, post:8, topic:327894"]
Good question to ask! Not many people notice this subtlety

The animal sacrifices were only a symbolic atonement for sins, foreshadowing the perfect sacrifice of Christ.

The righteous of the Old Testament could not make it to heaven, because the "gates were closed". They were held in the "Bosom of Abraham" (speculated to be either purgatory or similar to purgatory) where they waited for Christ's sacrifice.

According to the Apostle's Creed, Christ "died and descended into hell", meaning he went down to the "Bosom of Abraham", and freed the righteous so that they could enter heaven. Christ then gave the "keys" to the "gates of heaven" to Saint Peter, the first Pope, so that the Priests within the Catholic Church could forgive sins and allow people access to heaven!

So animal sacrifices were not equivalent to sacramental confession. They foreshadowed a time when sins could truly be forgiven!

[/quote]

Great Answer. That helped me out a lot!

Thanks,

Warren


#10

Genuine remorse has always been the foundation of any formal act of penance. Sacrifice atoned for sins, but it was not the only, or even better way; due to its complex ritual requirements sacrifice could be an inconvenient option even when it was available. Futhermore, Psalm 51:18-21 says that God delights only in sacrifices when performed with a “contrite heart.” We see this preference for remorse in Jonah 3, when Nineveh repents through public fasting and corporal punishment, but not sacrifice. Similarly, the first act in preparation for the Sacrament of Penance is contrition, which in certain cases can even atone for mortal sins outside of the Sacrament:

1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.


#11

the "Bosom of Abraham" (speculated to be either purgatory or similar to purgatory

Careful! The "Bosom of Abraham" is the same thing as the "Limbo of the Fathers". I have never seen speculation that it is the same of Purgatory (because that wouldn't really make sense: Purgatory is not a destination, nor is it a pleasant place as the Bosom of Abraham is described as being). When people speculate about the possibility of a "Limbo of the Infants", they sometimes speculate that it might be the same place as the "Limbo of the Fathers". I suspect this is what you were remembering (people seem to muddle Limbo and Purgatory up quite a bit).


#12

If you recall, Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins. Put this together with 1 John, and with the fact that the Apostles left successors (Timothy and Titus, for example) and what do you get? Confession. How else could an Apostle forgive sins, lest the sinner confess them?


#13

[quote="PJM, post:6, topic:327894"]
My FRIEND:)

Being dubious is rather common these days.

What I shared was not mine[although I Do believe and practice it]; it is a GIFT from our God. A Gift of Love, which like grace itself can be denied, or ignored. So what YOU do with God's Truth [singular] is between the two of you.:rolleyes:

Now as to John 1:9

DID YOU KNOW?
That there is only One INFALLIBLE rule for right understanding of Gods WORDS: Here it is [in caps for emphasis; NOT shouting]:D

NEVER, EVER CAN, MAY OR DOES ONE VERSE; PASSAGE OR TEACHING MAKE VOID ANOTHER VERSE; PASSAGE OR TEACHING. Such even as a possibility [its NOT!]; would render the bible as worthlress.

here's why:

Matthew 4:4 “Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God” 2nd. Tim. 3:16 "All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice" John 12: 48-49 He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.”

Some advice from A "Great Grandpa"

Truth just like God is One [singular]

Therefore God's truth [must also be singular]

God; both Good and Perfect simply cannot hold differing views; MANY even contradictory
Like OSAS; the Sinners prayer; Faith alone, which are not supportablw when using the ENTIRE Bible AND the "Rule."

As for masturbation; like any and all adictive actions; they DO require God; God's Grace; the Holy Spirit's intervention. BUT it absoutely requires 1. Our humility 2. Our prayerful request 3. Accepting and appying the Offfered Grace fully and correctly. These Very serious issues cannot be conquared alone. THAT DEAR FRIEND was God's Perfect understanding in creating the Sacrament of Confession. God isn't likely to speak directly to you; BUT HIS Priest On HIS Behalf can:thumbsup:

God Bless you and THANKS for your post!

Pat/PJM

[/quote]

thanks PJM

as noted this is Threads in Forum : Non-Catholic Religions

i think you would be a good fit at wall mart-- now that you are a great-- something

youtu.be/if327jXIrBo

yes there is singular truth -- and a singular God-- and a singular commentary and a singular deception and a singular opinion and a singular holy spirit-- and every religion claims the singular path to that truth--

So what YOU do with God's Truth [singular] is between the two of you.:rolleyes:

youtu.be/kL7NNLamR6w


#14

=PeaceInChrist;10807304]If you recall, Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins. Put this together with 1 John, and with the fact that the Apostles left successors (Timothy and Titus, for example) and what do you get? Confession. How else could an Apostle forgive sins, lest the sinner confess them?

Thank you. well done.

I am continually amazed at peoples selective use of the bible and the OH! so often lack of applied logic in there positions.:o


#15

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