Outside the church there is no.. cant be meaningless


#1

just to elaborate on my earlier post “pat madrid warns protestants of their salvation” one of the points i was making was that Pope Pius XII, in Humani Generis, states that “outside The church there is no salvation” cannot be a “meaningless phrase.” some were saying on this forum that if protestants dont beleive in the Church than it must not be their fault–WELL GUEES WHAT IT VERY WELL MAYBE-- they may have hardened their hearts and decided not to accept the truth–people very often rationalize and “look the other way” to what they know in their inner self is true. keep in mind the Church has condemned proteatanism as a heresy–they deny clear truths that are necessay for salvation–STOP GIVING PROTESTANTS A “FREE PASS” it is a false religion that has divided Christianity and needs to be expelled…i dont want to sound to radical but guees what it true–there are many many quotes that suggest this, but all one has to do is read the council of trent and u wil see–i dare say even vatican II says the same thing, but in “nicer language”–but it seems that if we use language that isnt as clear as possible people like some of u simply JUST DONT GET IT!!! SO WAKE UP CATHOLICS–show love for the protestant–real love–pray for his conversion and try to convert him with ur charity and arguments–becaus like the council of florence says–not even if one sheds his blodd for christ can he be saved, but will go to the fires of hell, if he does not remain in the bosom of theHoly Roman Catholic Church…*** yes people we know that if through no fault of their own they dont enter the church that thery can be saved—EVERYONE KNOWS THAT SO STOP SAYING IT–BUT GUEES WHAT IF IT IS THEIR FAULT THEN THEY GO TO HELL


#2

Very good point.

I have always thought that Vatican II did say the same thing.


#3

Hello Marineboy,

I did not realize that you started a new thread on the same subject.

If JPII really does believe in Pope Eugene VI “No salvation outside the Church”, why does he constantly focus on condemning the worldly, “no salvation”, hell goers for not feeding the poor, rather than Catholics? Jesus warns Catholics who neglect the poor, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food".

When ever I hear the JPII make a world mass media statement, he is almost alway condemning the world for not feeding the poor, war, abortion and what ever. Rarely do I hear JPII condemn, road to hell, Catholics who fail to love Jesus by failing to insure that the poor are cared for and obeying Jesus. Does JPII believe, "No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church" or dos’nt he?

I have heard it said that Catholics on average pay only one percent of their income to keep the poor from dying. Catholics should be offering up to God His full ten percent of their income to keep the poor from dying. Should’nt JPII be focusing on Catholics who hate Jesus to reform and feed the poor rather than trying to get the “outside the Church” group to feed the poor, when JPII believes that Jesus is just going to cast this group into hell anyway, no matter what they do? It seems such a waste for Jesus to have to cast into hell so many Catholics who, with proper leadership, might have had a chance at salvation had JPII focused his condemnation on them for not tithing to keep the poor from dying, rather than focussing on the “no salvation” world.

JPII, believing in “no salvation outside the Church”, boldly telling a world of “outside the Church” people to join the Church, I could accept. JPII, simply telling those “outside the Church” to do the Church’s work, when he believes them to be absolutely going to hell, makes no sence. If we Catholics are going to have to believe Pope Eugene IV, then let us have our leader start acting like he believes Pope Eugene IV. The next time JPII demands that the “hell going” World Bank forgive third world debt, they have a right to know that JPII believes they in the World Bank, who are not “bosom of the Church” Catholics, are going to burn in hell regardless of whether they help the poor or not.

NAB MAT 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (ISA 58)

Pope Eugene IV, (Bull Cantate Domino, 1441) “The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com


#4

The teaching has never changed, some people at various times have decided to give it their own personal slant and some indeed, such as Fr Feeney have had to be disciplined by the Church for it.

‘And so it is with the theological slogan, extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Latin for “outside the Church, no salvation”). This is a doctrine of the Catholic Church, one that’s found in every age of Catholic history, and it’s held to by the Church’s best and most influential minds. Understood properly, its dogmatic truth is beyond question. The problem arises, however, when this slogan is given a life of its own. And so it was in the 1940s with Fr. Leonard Feeney.’

envoymagazine.com/backis…coverstory.html


#5

Yes regretably there are still Catholic’s out there who hold the ‘Not a card carrying Catholic? Then you cannot be saved.’ position. Ignore them. Listen to the Pope, the Bishops and the Church. I’m sure you have read the thread where I and others have pointed out why these EENS ‘traditionalists’ are simply plain wrong.

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324


#6

My posts above are from the CCC.

POSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
FIDEI DEPOSITUM

ON THE PUBLICATION OF THE

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

PREPARED FOLLOWING THE SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL

JOHN PAUL, BISHOP
SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD
FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.

scborromeo.org/ccc/aposcons.htm


#7

CCC - scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
FIDEI DEPOSITUM

ON THE PUBLICATION OF THE

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

PREPARED FOLLOWING THE SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL

JOHN PAUL, BISHOP
SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD
FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.

(please note the above by the current pope - are you disagreeing with him?)

and

The project was the object of extensive consultation among all Catholic Bishops, their Episcopal Conferences or Synods, and theological and catechetical institutes. As a whole, it received a broadly favorable acceptance on the part of the Episcopate. It can be said that this Catechism is the result of the collaboration of the whole Episcopate of the Catholic Church


#8

CCC - A sure norm for teaching the faith JPII

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
(My Bold)

To take the example of EENS, (no salvation outside the Church) the CCC is quite clear

CCC 847 - This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation

CCC 838 - The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."[322] Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”[323]

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm


#9

How about this?

ALL
** SALVATION**
**COMES *THROUGH ***
THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH


#10

[quote=john654]How about this?

ALL
** SALVATION**
**COMES *THROUGH ***
THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH
[/quote]

Absolutely!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


#11

STOP GIVING PROTESTANTS A “FREE PASS”

None of us will earn salvation. Every saved soul has gotten a free pass from Christ.


#12

JGC,

JGC http://forums.catholic.com/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_347954”, true);
Senior Member
Join Date: July 27, 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 527

http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: outside the church there is no… cant be meaningless
Quote:
Originally Posted by john654
*How about this?

ALL*
SALVATION
**COMES *THROUGH ***
THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH

Absolutely!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


As one who has slept
The Lord has risen
And rising he has seen us
Alleluia

Thank You JGC!

John


#13

Katherine2

Quote:
STOP GIVING PROTESTANTS A "FREE PASS"
None of us will earn salvation. Every saved soul has gotten a free pass from Christ.

Jesus is FREE but He ain’t cheap!

We are ALL going to be judged on our works. Jesus said it and I believe Him. He said carry out your salvation in fear and trembling. There is NO FREE PASS!

Jesus said so!

Obedience,
John


#14

[quote=john654]Katherine2

Jesus is FREE but He ain’t cheap!

We are ALL going to be judged on our works. Jesus said it and I believe Him. He said carry out your salvation in fear and trembling. There is NO FREE PASS!

Jesus said so!

Obedience,
John
[/quote]

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

Well worth a read, Katherine2.


#15

JGC,

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

I agree!

The only thing that a person can be absolutly sure of is: death, Taxes, and the Holy Catholic Church.

HA!

Peace, Joy, Love, Obedience,
John


#16

[quote=marineboy] like the council of florence says–not even if one sheds his blodd for christ can he be saved, but will go to the fires of hell, if he does not remain in the bosom of theHoly Roman Catholic Church…***
[/quote]

Really, please give your source for this quote. I have been unable to verify this quote can you?


#17

show love for the protestant–real love–pray for his conversion and try to convert him with ur charity and arguments–becaus like the council of florence says–not even if one sheds his blodd for christ can he be saved, but will go to the fires of hell, if he does not remain in the bosom of theHoly Roman Catholic Church…*

First of all – there were no “protestants” per se at the time of The Council of Florence (1439-1442)!

Secondly, this is what was stated, perShawn McElhinney,:

“It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. (Denzinger 714). “

Yet, section 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1993) says:

‘The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.’ "

Thirdly: Perhaps protestants – at least some – ARE “within” the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church – even if they are unaware of the fact?

Consider Fr. Brian Harrison’s article on Muslims worshipping the same God as Catholics and Jews – even if THEY are unaware of it! [

Why not get yourself a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and see what the Church teachings are – as infallibly interpreted by the Vicar of Christ? Yes, being teachings on Faith and Morals – the Catechism of the Catholic Church does teach with Petrine authority.Are Protestants Catholics?](http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea4.asp)


#18

Correction: The last two links should be:

Consider Fr. Brian Harrison’s article on Muslims worshipping the same God as Catholics and Jews – even if THEY are unaware of it! Muslims Worship the One True God

Fourthly, consider the following article written in the late 1800’s
Are Protestants Catholics


#19

[quote=marineboy]just to elaborate on my earlier post “pat madrid warns protestants of their salvation” one of the points i was making was that Pope Pius XII, in Humani Generis, states that “outside The church there is no salvation” cannot be a “meaningless phrase.” some were saying on this forum that if protestants dont beleive in the Church than it must not be their fault–WELL GUEES WHAT IT VERY WELL MAYBE-- they may have hardened their hearts and decided not to accept the truth–people very often rationalize and “look the other way” to what they know in their inner self is true. keep in mind the Church has condemned proteatanism as a heresy–they deny clear truths that are necessay for salvation–STOP GIVING PROTESTANTS A “FREE PASS” it is a false religion that has divided Christianity and needs to be expelled…i dont want to sound to radical but guees what it true–there are many many quotes that suggest this, but all one has to do is read the council of trent and u wil see–i dare say even vatican II says the same thing, but in “nicer language”–but it seems that if we use language that isnt as clear as possible people like some of u simply JUST DONT GET IT!!! SO WAKE UP CATHOLICS–show love for the protestant–real love–pray for his conversion and try to convert him with ur charity and arguments–becaus like the council of florence says–not even if one sheds his blodd for christ can he be saved, but will go to the fires of hell, if he does not remain in the bosom of theHoly Roman Catholic Church…*** yes people we know that if through no fault of their own they dont enter the church that thery can be saved—EVERYONE KNOWS THAT SO STOP SAYING IT–BUT GUEES WHAT IF IT IS THEIR FAULT THEN THEY GO TO HELL
[/quote]

He Marine Boy I am a
Messianic believer in Yeshua and I think my Church is far older than any Catholic Dogma. Oh and by the way the Jerusalem council was not a Roman Catholic event. I think that I will rely upon the Written Word of God rather than the Dogma of the RCC.
Is the RCC a cult religion? Kind of sounds that way to me.


#20

ur funny because u say ur relying on the writen word of God and u reject the Cathlic church–well if u reject the Church then i guees u reject the dogma of infallibilty—if u deny that then u dont even know if ur new testament canon is reliable—if the church is not infallible then how do u know that matthw-revelation are the correct books of the new teatament canon–if the church is fallible then they could have made a mistake and some books that are in the canon maybe shouldnt be and some that were excluded maybe shouldnt have been–so u see by rejecting the church u also reject the Bible–because it was the Catholic church who recognized which books were cannoical and which books werent–(council of carthage and council of hippo) by the way ley me tkake this time to invite u into the church because if u die outside the roman catholic church and are judged in that state ur gonna go to hell-----


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