Outside the Church there is no salvation

846 …they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
CCC

Why would someone “refuse either to enter it or to remain in it” if they know “that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ”?
Wouldn’t such person NOT know?
Unless they did not want salvation…

Think of it this way: all humans, capable of reason, can “know with certainty” that God exists (CCC #36). But as you know, many deny God - they “suppress the truth”, and so they are “without excuse” (Romans 1). So there can be many people who know that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of God, or they simply refuse to seek the truth, and or they refuse to obey Christ’s Church, and they are without excuse. Who “they” are is, of course, for Our Lord Jesus to judge. But don’t be surprised if there are a lot of people who He finds guilty for not joining His Church, or for not obeying Her. :frowning:

I think it would be more along the lines of obstinance, where the person knows it in their heart, but for whatever reasons of pride or not wanting to have to go to confession or live chastely, or whatever other obstacle, they blind themselves and not take the next step. We all do this whenever we sin. We know something is wrong, yet we do it anyway, convincing ourselves of the temporal advantage over and above the eternal benefit of avoiding sin.

Luke: Please justify your terms. Does the Church actually teach that people refusing to seek the truth cannot be saved? I think at least some (if not more) people just can’t be bothered. Their lives are complicated enough already. Therefore, what does the Church actually teach?

CATECHISM
PART ONE
SECTION ONE
CHAPTER ONE
I. THE DESIRE FOR GOD

27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself…

From one ancestor [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him - though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For "in him we live and move and have our being."2

29 But this “intimate and vital bond of man to God” (GS 19 § 1) can be forgotten, overlooked, or even explicitly rejected by man.3 Such attitudes can have different causes: revolt against evil in the world; religious ignorance or indifference; the cares and riches of this world; the scandal of bad example on the part of believers; currents of thought hostile to religion; finally, that attitude of sinful man which makes him hide from God out of fear and flee his call.4

30 "Let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice."5 Although man can forget God or reject him, He never ceases to call every man to seek him, so as to find life and happiness. But this search for God demands of man every effort of intellect, a sound will, “an upright heart”, as well as the witness of others who teach him to seek God.

You are great, O Lord, and greatly to be praised: great is your power and your wisdom is without measure. And man, so small a part of your creation, wants to praise you: this man, though clothed with mortality and bearing the evidence of sin and the proof that you withstand the proud. Despite everything, man, though but a small a part of your creation, wants to praise you. You yourself encourage him to delight in your praise, for you have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.6

II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD

31 Created in God’s image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of “converging and convincing arguments”, which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These “ways” of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.

32 The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world’s order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe.

As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.7

36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God’s revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created “in the image of God”.12

37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:

Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. The human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13

38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God’s revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also “about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error”. 14

Luke:
I was hoping for an explanation in your own words. I have the Catechism, The Compendium and all the supporting documents: The Companion to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Pray tell, could you give a brief explanation in your own words if possible? Thanks

(lookaround: ) Some of the responders here have hit upon portions of the answer but I’m not sure they are ‘hearing’ what you’re saying (asking). Their answers are correct but not complete. As this re-asking of yours shows, the full answer has not yet been presented. Anyway… The statement as written makes clear sense. The statement is not saying that the Baptists, Pentecostals, Jehovah’s Witnesses and heathens are doomed to destruction because they haven’t signed up in the Catholic Church. Instead, it is saying that Catholics themselves who turn away from the church – if they know in their head and heart that the Catholic Church is the church founded by God-- are the ones doomed to destruction. The statement is only applicable to those who ‘know’ that the Catholic Church is THE church, and then knowingly turn away from it. This leaves out all members of denominations that ‘know’ just the opposite (e.g. Protestants ‘know’ that the modern existing Catholic Church is not the church founded by God). Paul told us that if there was no Law, then he couldn’t be found guilty of sin. We can only sin if we know what the law is. Just one of several places where Paul conveys that idea is at Romans 4:15 where Paul writes, “For where there is no law, neither is there transgression.” As an example (from the non-religious sphere of life), if a man with Bermuda shorts, flip-flops, and a baggy hawaiian tee-shirt pulls a gun on me in the grocery store parking lot and I somehow knock the gun away from him and either knock him out or kill him, the only question the District Attorney will be asking is, “Did you know he was a[n undercover] police officer?”. If I knew that he was an undercover police officer, then I’m goin’ to jail for a long time. If I didn’t know, and there was no reason why I should have known, then I will walk away free. Same with God (according to the scriptures). If I know something as a surety and thereafter turn away from it-- then I’m doomed. So, this statement has no bearing on, and is not referring to, the whole of the Earth’s population that has no ‘thought’ that the currently existing Catholic Church is the Church founded by God. It is speaking only to those who ‘know’ the Catholic Church is THE church founded by God, and then obstinantly or defiantly turn away from it.

I actually didn’t answer the question myself in my post above! Here is the answer:

As for why someone would turn their back, it is the age old story. God declares the path He wants us to take: Satan presents us with an alternate path, and makes that alternate seem to be better or more ‘enlightened’ or more fun, or more ‘logical’. Those that turn away are those that think that a few bites from the sweet apple couldn’t possibly be as bad as God said it would be. Satan’s influence mixed with an individual’s God-given Free Will is the reason someone would turn away from a truth that they ‘know’.

If I know something as a surety and thereafter turn away from it-- then I’m doomed. So, this statement has no bearing on, and is not referring to, the whole of the Earth’s population that has no ‘thought’ that the currently existing Catholic Church is the Church founded by God. It is speaking only to those who ‘know’ the Catholic Church is THE church founded by God, and then obstinantly or defiantly turn away from it.

As for why someone would turn their back, it is the age old story. God declares the path He wants us to take: Satan presents us with an alternate path, and makes that alternate seem to be better or more ‘enlightened’ or more fun, or more ‘logical’. Those that turn away are those that think that a few bites from the sweet apple couldn’t possibly be as bad as God said it would be. Satan’s influence mixed with an individual’s God-given Free Will is the reason someone would turn away from a truth that they ‘know’.

That brings me to a few questions:

  1. If someone converts to another religion, for example buddhism, because due to studying its teachings the person gets the feeling that buddhism is the true religion (with priorly to that havin doubts about roman catholicism being the true religion). How is one supposed to know that it isnt Satan who is misleading that person?

  2. Is there still a chance of salvation for a person of another religion (either being a natural born member of that religion or a convert from rom. cath.) who doesn’t believe that the roman catholic religion is the true religion, does something that is considered a mortal sin in the teachings of roman catholicism? (For example the use of contraceptives by muslims/buddhists/etc who don’t consider it a sin at all)

After reading the Catechism, it seems pretty simple to me.

In my own humble words; If you know that Jesus is God and He created the Catholic Church to continue His teaching on earth until His return, but you choose not to follow His teachings as revealed through His Catholic Church, then YOU have chosen to give up eternal salvation!

If you don’t know that, then you could attain salvation by listening to Jesus in your heart and living a righteous life.

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

Many would succumb to carnal and other temptations and leaving The Church. For example King Henry VIII.

That’s kind of what I am talking about.

Did King Henry VIII know?
At some point he might have known, but would he have left if he knew?

Martin Luther is another example.
He might have known, but would he have left if he knew?

A modern day example is Fr. Cutie.
He might have known as well, but would he have left if he knew?

The problem I am having is I don’t understand how someone could leave in the state of knowing.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Dear Look:
You have hit upon the central problem of sin. We know it’s wrong but we still choose to sin. That is why hell is so terrible. Those in hell fully know what it is and will always be and they still choose hell because they love their sin and hate God. That is why hell awaits those who reject the Church (Christ) with full knowledge. Anthony. Now, have a bite of cake and let’s calm down.

look,
You mentioned that CCC teaches only Catholics are saved.
Question, do you have a scripture to provide from the Bible that teaches this?

Please read Rom.2:11
God loves all that he has called to Himself.
Not all of these believers are Catholics. :slight_smile:

God bless,
jean

Really?

luke,
Judging other christians is not to be done.
Mt.7:1-5 reads "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2. For the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the same measure you use , it will be measured to you…
3. Why do you look for the speak of sawdust in your brothers eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4. How can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speak out of your eye, when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5. "You hypocrite,
first take the plank out of your own eye, then you will see clearly to remove the speack form your brothes eye."
There are other passages that warn us all about judging. We should pray for others , with love.

God bless,
jean

Jean: You have written that he has judged somebody else. This in itself is a judgement. When I write this it is a judgement of what you have written. Where does this end? Of course-- with the pope. That is why Paul went to Peter for a judgement. Anthony

HI lookaround, Welcome to CAF I hope you meet great people and make lot’s of friends. God Bless You Nancy:)

In answer to the first question: There is no way of knowing with certainty whether or not that person is sinning in turning away from the Catholic Church. It may be extremely probable in that case, given the nature of Buddhism, but nevertheless it could not be known with certainty. That would not be something that we would be judging; our only concern would be to try and inform that person of his errors, and show him what he is missing about Catholicism.

In answer to the second question: Of course in a certain sense there is a chance for salvation for someone like that. It is possible both for someone to be invincibly ignorant in the religion he is in, and also ignorant of what he is doing by such an action, and even to believe that he is doing something which is actually a good, by say using contraceptives. Nevertheless, such a thing would only be accidentally good, in virtue of his intention, and of itself evil. By that same token, someone could do something accidentally good in murdering another, because he has been raised his entire life to believe that the best possible thing he could do for his country is to murder someone. Again, in these kinds of cases, we could not leave someone in his ignorance, but would have an obligation to try, insofar as we are able, to bring him to the knowledge of the truth, and to that Faith where alone he can find all the necessary helps for salvation.

God bless,
Ludovicus
outsidethechurchnosalvation.blogspot.com/

I have a question I hope you dont mind but I didn’t want to open a thread for one question, this must have been asked before, Lets say a man or a woman contracts aids and they are married and young, lets say he or she got it by blood transfusion, so now there is no sin here. Can they use contraceptions to avoid the other mate from getting this terrible disease? That was a good question, got an answer? Thank You Nancy

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