Outside the Church there is no salvation


#1

I was in a Catholic chat room the other day, and the administrator of that room claimed that those people who did not know Jesus Christ – could not attain salvation. I quoted her the section (paragraph #847) in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church which says that salvation IS possible for people who do not know Jesus Christ. She responded by stating that many passages in the CCC are ‘gray areas’ that need proper interpretation. Am I wrong in taking para. #847 at it’s face value…or is there a different meaning than what is written there? (see below)

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”


#2

Salvation is not possible unless you go through Jesus. This can be found in John 14:6:
Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” One must obtain salvation through Jesus. At the same time, every person has been given enough grace by God in order to get to heaven, but they can reject God, which would result in no salvation. It is also possible for those who do not explicitly know Jesus, to get to heaven. God can do things unknown to us in order to save souls.

matt


#3

The Administrator is wrong on this count. Although the Church is the means that God prescribed to bring all men to salvation, he is not limited by the means he gives us. Consider this passage from Paul’s letter to the Romans (1:16–2:16):

For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek.
For in it is revealed the righteousness of God from faith to faith; as it is written, "The one who is righteous by faith will live."
The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;
for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. While claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.
Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.
They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.
We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true. Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance? By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
There is no partiality with God.
All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.


#4

If one can be saved outside the church , then what purpose does faith, repentance, baptism and the Eucharist give, if not to offer the forgiveness of sins? This is the purpose of the sacraments. That through these sacraments recipients can receive God’s grace and be forgiven of their sins.

                                But even more importantly can the heathen who worship idols and false Gods be allowed into heaven out of ignorance? My goodness, the martyred saints of the first three centuries would roll over in their graves if they knew Nero of Rome and Domitian of Rome could also gain salvation, even though they were woefully ignorant of Christ.

#5

[quote=John Donlan]I was in a Catholic chat room the other day, and the administrator of that room claimed that those people who did not know Jesus Christ – could not attain salvation. I quoted her the section (paragraph #847) in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which says that salvation IS possible for people who do not know Jesus Christ. She responded by stating that many passages in the CCC are ‘gray areas’ that need proper interpretation.
[/quote]

I love how certain individuals believe that the Catechism, which was designed to clearly and easily explain the faith, needs further explanation and interpretation.

:nope:

I really like it how paragraph 1257 handles salvation, particularly in regards to the necessity of baptism:

1257
God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

Peace and God bless! :slight_smile:

Eric


#6

Eventhough the Catechism says that salvation IS possible, it doesn’t say that it actually will happen. Something can be posible and yet never happen.

It is possible that I will hit the lottery. It is also possible that I will get hit by lightning too.

I don’t know how many God saves who are ignorant of Christ. We can certainly hope, but we have no assurance of faith that they will be. that is why it is important to spread the gospel.


#7

[quote=piety101]If one can be saved outside the church , then what purpose does faith, repentance, baptism and the Eucharist give, if not to offer the forgiveness of sins? This is the purpose of the sacraments. That through these sacraments recipients can receive God’s grace and be forgiven of their sins.

But even more importantly can the heathen who worship idols and false Gods be allowed into heaven out of ignorance? My goodness, the martyred saints of the first three centuries would roll over in their graves if they knew Nero of Rome and Domitian of Rome could also gain salvation, even though they were woefully ignorant of Christ.
[/quote]

For YOU faith, repentence, baptism, he Eucharist is absolutely and normatively neccessary. You have heard the word and believe and so must obey. But God judges each individual according to the light he has been given. That is why of the faithful servant who turned unfaithful in Luke 12 (around v.45) it says that “to the one who knew, he shall be treated with the unbelievers, but to the one who did not know, he will recieve BUT FEW LASHES.”. God is the judge of what we should and shouldn’t know and the grace that we have been given to know. We are not judged equally but according to the grace each has been given. An aboriginee in 1200 did not recieve the grace to know that baptism and the Eucharist are neccessary for salvation. Yet according to Romans 2:14-15, God’s laws were planted on his hearts such that he could do what the law requires.

Blessings


#8

[quote=Dan-Man916]Eventhough the Catechism says that salvation IS possible, it doesn’t say that it actually will happen. Something can be posible and yet never happen.

It is possible that I will hit the lottery. It is also possible that I will get hit by lightning too.

I don’t know how many God saves who are ignorant of Christ. We can certainly hope, but we have no assurance of faith that they will be. that is why it is important to spread the gospel.
[/quote]

Yes, we should hope as if all are saved but work and pray as if none are.

Blessings


#9

[quote=Dan-Man916]Eventhough the Catechism says that salvation IS possible, it doesn’t say that it actually will happen. Something can be posible and yet never happen.

It is possible that I will hit the lottery. It is also possible that I will get hit by lightning too.

I don’t know how many God saves who are ignorant of Christ. We can certainly hope, but we have no assurance of faith that they will be. that is why it is important to spread the gospel.
[/quote]

Precisely. Its amazing how much stock people are willing to place in the mere “possibility” of salvation.


#10

This section of the Catechism is definitely a grey area. The Church (Rome) allows the so called “strict” interpretation of this dogma (ie Feeneyite, Feeneyism, etc.) Beyond this what is the Catechism trying to say:

  1. Is no salvation outside the Catholic Church a dogma? (It is but why does the Catechism say that it is only “often repeated phrase of the Church Fathers”)
  2. The catechism appears to be saying that this dogma does not apply to good will non-Catholics. Are they saying that a person can be saved without being incorporated into the Mystical Body of Christ? (Most conservatives argue that non-catholics that are saved are really in the Church, they just do not know it.)
  3. They say that this person receives faith. Is the acceptance of this Faith a free conscious act of the individual’s will, or does God give him this Faith against or at least without the consent of the will? If he gives it to the man with the conscious consent of the will, then there would have to be some kind of Divine Revelation given and received, so what does this act of faith consist? What is the object of the faith he give assent to?
  4. It says that the person must seek God. So those people who are completely secular and never try to find God are damned?
  5. Is it saying that God will not lead those who seek him with a sincere heart to His Church? I personally could not imagine a person praying to know the truth about the Eucharist or Mary, and God not giving the person the grace to see the truth. This indeed would seem to make God out to be a monster.

With regard to the quote from Lumen Gentium, when a group of Feeneyites were regularized, they submitted their understanding of Lumen Gentium to the CDF. Their understanding went something like this:

Lumen Gentium 16 states:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Their interpretation of this paragraph went like this:

Those people who do not know Christ or His Church can attain salvation, however they can not attain salvation where they are. Because the truths that these false belief systems hold are ONLY a preparation for the Gospel. That is why the last sentence of the paragraph says “to procure the salvation of ALL of these… the Church fosters the missions…” So these people are not saved by their false beliefs which are a PREPARATION for the Gospel, nor their invincible ignorance, but by the missions. How many are saved by the Church’s mission? "ALL of these."
This interpretation was approved as an orthodox interpretation of Lumen Gentium by the CDF. I personally know many different interpretations of this passage, but I do not know another that has been approved by the CDF.

So the issue is very complex, and this is probably why apologists asked Bill Rutland not to debate James White on this portion of the Catechism.

Hope this helps.

In the Heart of Jesus and Mary,
Chris Sarsfield


#11

In regards to “Piety” 's statement: But even more importantly can the heathen who worship idols and false Gods be allowed into heaven out of ignorance? My goodness, the martyred saints of the first three centuries would roll over in their graves if they knew Nero of Rome and Domitian of Rome could also gain salvation, even though they were woefully ignorant of Christ.I can’t help think of the billions of people – our brothers and sisters throughout the world – who practice Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Cannibalism, etc. They believe that they are practicing the “One True Faith”, just as we Catholics do.

Did God create all of them, just to see them all go to hell? I don’t believe so. That’s not the God that I worship.

To say that someone is destined for hell just because he/she is ignorant of the salvation purchased for us by Jesus Christ…well, that’s simply being judgemental. And, Jesus teaches us that we must not judge each other.


#12

[quote=Servitor]This section of the Catechism is definitely a grey area. The Church (Rome) allows the so called “strict” interpretation of this dogma (ie Feeneyite, Feeneyism, etc.) Beyond this what is the Catechism trying to say:

  1. Is no salvation outside the Catholic Church a dogma? (It is but why does the Catechism say that it is only “often repeated phrase of the Church Fathers”)
  2. The catechism appears to be saying that this dogma does not apply to good will non-Catholics. Are they saying that a person can be saved without being incorporated into the Mystical Body of Christ? (Most conservatives argue that non-catholics that are saved are really in the Church, they just do not know it.)
  3. They say that this person receives faith. Is the acceptance of this Faith a free conscious act of the individual’s will, or does God give him this Faith against or at least without the consent of the will? If he gives it to the man with the conscious consent of the will, then there would have to be some kind of Divine Revelation given and received, so what does this act of faith consist? What is the object of the faith he give assent to?
  4. It says that the person must seek God. So those people who are completely secular and never try to find God are damned?
  5. Is it saying that God will not lead those who seek him with a sincere heart to His Church? I personally could not imagine a person praying to know the truth about the Eucharist or Mary, and God not giving the person the grace to see the truth. This indeed would seem to make God out to be a monster.

With regard to the quote from Lumen Gentium, when a group of Feeneyites were regularized, they submitted their understanding of Lumen Gentium to the CDF. Their understanding went something like this:

Lumen Gentium 16 states:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Their interpretation of this paragraph went like this:

Those people who do not know Christ or His Church can attain salvation, however they can not attain salvation where they are. Because the truths that these false belief systems hold are ONLY a preparation for the Gospel. That is why the last sentence of the paragraph says “to procure the salvation of ALL of these… the Church fosters the missions…” So these people are not saved by their false beliefs which are a PREPARATION for the Gospel, nor their invincible ignorance, but by the missions. How many are saved by the Church’s mission? "ALL of these."
This interpretation was approved as an orthodox interpretation of Lumen Gentium by the CDF. I personally know many different interpretations of this passage, but I do not know another that has been approved by the CDF.

So the issue is very complex, and this is probably why apologists asked Bill Rutland not to debate James White on this portion of the Catechism.

Hope this helps.

In the Heart of Jesus and Mary,
Chris Sarsfield
[/quote]

There is nothing gray about this area of the Catechism at all. It is very very clear. Salvation will be determined by the Creator, not us. For those of us blessed enough to hear the Word we are obligated to certain earthly actions in His honor. For those not blessed enough to hear the Word, but who honor the fundamental yearning to know truth and God to the best of their ability, salvation is possible. That cannot be any clearer and only smart alek Catholics like myself will argue it like we argue over how many angels dance on the head of a pin.:stuck_out_tongue:

Love you all - now, I am off to put my over-educated head in prayer…lolololol


#13

Perhaps this that I posted on a similar thread will help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty PGH
*

If the Catholic Church possess the fulness of the revealed truth about Jesus Christ, do we not do the rest of a world a disservice by seeming indifferent as to their choice of “denomination?”?*

That is exactly what Dominus Iesus is about and the answer to your question is yes. Nevertheless we do not judge those who have not come to the fullness of the truth because we are not their judge and do not know the grace that God has given them. In Luke 12 there is the servant who knew and was treated with the unbelievers. There was also the one who did not know and recieved but few lashes. God judges us on what we have been given. Not on total doctrinal perfection. Our dillegence in seeking truth is important as well. For we cannot remain in ignorance because of the greater challenges truth puts before us. Further it is not saying that one denomination is as good as another and that all should not become Catholic. But the point is to let go and let God. He is the judge. Cornelius was a righteous and God fearing man BEFORE Peter came to him. I don’t believe the righteous and God fearing go to hell, had he died before he met Peter. Yet he had to accept the truth that Peter presented or he would have been damend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty PGH
*
Also - how does one reconcile the opinion that salvation can be found in, say, a Lutheran, Anglican or Baptist church when Christ himself says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. " We do not believe (nor do they) that these groups do in fact receive Christ in the same physical manner we do, in accordance with his commandment. Therefore, how can they find salvation?*

This is a very good question and one that I struggeled with for a long time. But you have to realize that there are actually 4 groups that you have to take in to account in John 6. The audience and the Apostles who accepted what Jesus said. The disciples who turned away, the Jews who rejected him before the discorse and weren’t going to accept what he said anyway. There is one other important group. Those who did not hear his words. See answer to first question. They are not accountable for what they have not been given the grace to know.

Finally I will quote another part of Dominus Iesus:

One cannot attribute to these, however, a divine origin or an ex opere operato salvific efficacy, which is proper to the Christian sacraments.88 Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other rituals, insofar as they depend on superstitions or other errors (cf. 1 Cor 10:20-21), constitute an obstacle to salvation.89

It is easier to convert someone who knows nothing of Christianity than one who has been taught error. Further to leave them where they are at is to leave them without the grace of the sacraments which is a great aid in their perseverence and avoidance of sin so we do not leave them where they are at. That is a sin. It is not the errors that they hold that are of any value but what they hold that is true. Hope that helps.

Blessings
[right][/right]


#14

Dear LSK,

I do not believe you answered my questions. And if the your interpretation is the only one that is reasonable, why did the CDF allow such obvious error?

In the Heart of Jesus and Mary,
Christopher Sarsfield


#15

[quote=Servitor]Dear LSK,

I do not believe you answered my questions. And if the your interpretation is the only one that is reasonable, why did the CDF allow such obvious error?

In the Heart of Jesus and Mary,
Christopher Sarsfield
[/quote]

There is no obvious error that I can see. I see nit picking and misinterpretation but no obvious error.

There is no error in Scripture and the Catechism is based upon Holy Scripture. There is, however, misinterpretation.

I read the Catechism and it is plain. Those who know the Word and practice the obligations necessary to honor and spread it will achieve salvation. Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Word but follow a sincere path to a God of their understanding are candidates for salvation. *AND IT IS NOT UP TO YOU OR ME TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE GRANTED SALVATION…*my Church simply teaches that it is possible and therefore up to GOD.

So it matters not what you ask me or what you think…the wording is simple and plain. The Church teaches it and I rely upon it and therefore, I sleep well at night.:wink:


#16

One poster said would God send all these people to hell for ignorance? The answer lies in what state man is in before God’s eyes. He is not just some ignorant heathen, but he is a SINNER, because of Adam’s sin. God in his holiness cannot tolerate sin nor allow it in heaven. Sin must be remedied, before God’s wrath is appeased before sinful men. That’s just the truth of it all. This is why God sent his only Son into this world. That all of mankind would not PERISH.

                               Why do you suppose we have missionaries in the world? Are they out there in a foreign land for site seeing and enjoying the view? No, they are out there to bring souls INTO the church that they may be saved from God's judgment. These missionaries have an URGENCY to reach the lost. This is their mission and always has been, since the apostles themselves were missionaries.

                                  Salvation of ALL souls is an eternal issue and once this life is over there is no second chance. God didn't have to even send his Son to die for us. But he did so out of mercy. People don't understand this. All men, are under sentence of the wrath of God UNTIL they come to the faith of Jesus Christ.Eph 2:1 thru 5. Even in the book of Revelation, chapter 20, it plainly states that WHOSOEVERS name is NOT written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. There are no exceptions, whether you accept what I'm posting or not.

#17

[quote=LSK]Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Word but follow a sincere path to a God of their understanding are candidates for salvation.
[/quote]

This is the million dollar question though: who are the people, who through no fault of their own do not know the Word but follow a sincere path to a God of their understanding?

Is it a boy in Africa, who never received the gospel, but lived a life of virtue before dying?

Is it a Protestant who denies the Eucharist but still strives to serve the Lord Jesus Christ?

Is it a pagan Roman who killed Christians out of ignorance because they didn’t understand what Catholicism *really *was?

It would seem that through some people’s interpretation, the statement merely refers to anyone who isn’t Catholic. Is this interpretatin proper or consistent with the gospels?

Furthermore, a more pressing question is: Is the Eucharist necessary? In other words, is the Eucharist just a neat little extra hug we get from God that other religious people don’t receive, or is the Eucharist *truly *necessary for our salvation?

To claim that people of other religions, that deny the Eucharist, can attain salvation is to claim that the Eucharist - or all the sacraments for that matter - is not necessary, but suggestions that improve your chances of getting into heaven and that is a blatant contradiction of Scripture and Catholic theology over the 1950 years before Vatican II.


#18

[quote=piety101]One poster said would God send all these people to hell for ignorance? The answer lies in what state man is in before God’s eyes. He is not just some ignorant heathen, but he is a SINNER, because of Adam’s sin. God in his holiness cannot tolerate sin nor allow it in heaven. Sin must be remedied, before God’s wrath is appeased before sinful men. That’s just the truth of it all. This is why God sent his only Son into this world. That all of mankind would not PERISH.
.
[/quote]

Absolutely (Rev 21:27, Nothing unclean shall enter heaven) which is why Catholics recognize degrees of sin (1 Jn 5:16-17) and Purgatory (2 Macc 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free them from sin) and recognize our duty to always be in communion with our brothers and sisters not of this earth who have suffered loss (1 Cor 3:15) but are saved through fire.

I am so thankful I am Catholic and can partake of the fullness of the faith! Wouldn’t it be sad to be a Christian without knowing that St. Paul teaches us to pray for the dead, as he did? (2 Tim 1:16-18).:smiley:


#19

[quote=mike182d]This is the million dollar question though: who are the people, who through no fault of their own do not know the Word but follow a sincere path to a God of their understanding?

Is it a boy in Africa, who never received the gospel, but lived a life of virtue before dying?

Is it a Protestant who denies the Eucharist but still strives to serve the Lord Jesus Christ?

Is it a pagan Roman who killed Christians out of ignorance because they didn’t understand what Catholicism *really *was?

It would seem that through some people’s interpretation, the statement merely refers to anyone who isn’t Catholic. Is this interpretatin proper or consistent with the gospels?

Furthermore, a more pressing question is: Is the Eucharist necessary? In other words, is the Eucharist just a neat little extra hug we get from God that other religious people don’t receive, or is the Eucharist *truly *necessary for our salvation?

To claim that people of other religions, that deny the Eucharist, can attain salvation is to claim that the Eucharist - or all the sacraments for that matter - is not necessary, but suggestions that improve your chances of getting into heaven and that is a blatant contradiction of Scripture and Catholic theology over the 1950 years before Vatican II.
[/quote]

Why do we need to know who is going to heaven. Is’nt God the judge. I don’t think he gave us the words of John 6 asd a checkbox. Cornelius in Acts 10 is said to be “a righteous and God-fearing man” BEFORE Peter comes to him with the fullness of the Gospel. Do righteous and God fearing men go to hell? Jesus tells the apostles that “the one who knew (and behaved badly) will be treated with the unbeliever, but to the one who did not know, he will recieve but few lashes.”. Luke 12 around v. 48.

Now if a Protestant deny’s the Eucharist, knowing in his heart that it is true (we cannot judge hearts) he is damned to hell. God is the judge of that. Yet if his denial is not culpable (very difficult to judge) he MAY be saved. Only God knows. John 6 does say “unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you shall not have life within you”. These words spoken by the savior himself could not be rejected for those who heard them from his eternal mouth. But there were many who were not there. To them we can make no judgement. The word brings responsibility. But the most responsible in searching for God may not hear these words or may not be able to understand them. God is the judge of them. Not us. He is not limited by his sacraments.

Blessings


#20

[quote=thessalonian]Why do we need to know who is going to heaven. Is’nt God the judge.
[/quote]

Because we need to know *how *to get to heaven. If salvation is virtually unaffected by my religious preference…why adhere to Catholicism at all? We are not Catholics because we choose to be, we choose to be Catholic because Christ said we must be to get to heaven.

Yes, God is the judge, but did He not already judge when He said that you must eat His flesh and drink His blood to have eternal life? Was God just kidding then, or speaking just to the Catholic Church? Will God’s judgement in heaven differ greatly from what it did when He dwelt among us? What reason have we to think so?


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