Outside The Church There Is No Salvation


#1

Right now I believe the Catholic Church teaches these two things, “Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation” and “Outside the Catholic Church there is salvation.” Therefore it is up to me to pick one.

Only recently, I have become aware of what the Church fathers have taught (see below). Based upon these quotes and what other saints have said I am inclined to believe the first statement above that “Outside the Church there is no salvation.” I am confused by the double speak of today’s Catechism which does state outside the Church there is no salvation and then goes on to say how there is salvation outside the Church. I believe the Catechism is deficient in that it is silent on the statements from Popes and councils below and does not address them. Maybe I should take a historic vote on those in authority who have said there is no salvation outside the Church and those who have said there is salvation outside the Church before I decide who I’m going to believe. :thumbsup:

Pope Quotes
"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent II, Fourth Lateran Council)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VII, the Bull Unam Sanctam)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)


#2

I’m not sure where in Scripture or Tradition - our leaders gets the notion that God definitely has a saving means outside the church. I think it would be better to say that “we don’t known” or it “has not been revealed” to us.

Another question concerns those non-Catholics Christians- who were born in a sect and did not personally sin by leaving the Catholic church. They are united to Christ in baptism- so in a real sense they are members of the one church of God - the Catholic church and don’t know it. I’m talking about Protestants with valid baptisms. Now, you should know that if they fall into moral sin during their life - they have no sacramental confession. They don’t believe in it. This is why the church teaches that salvation may be possible - but it’s very unlikely outside the church. I believe the masses in the pews believe that practically everybody’s going to heaven. Our bishops - seem more concerned about what heretics, athiests, modernist and liberals think - rather how the church teaching are being received by the faithful members. The bishops at least need to correct the notion - that salvation outside the church - is at least unlikely.


#3

This topic was heavily discussed in a topic that I started a few weeks ago. You may want to look at it to see what has been already said.


#4

[quote=Steve40]Right now I believe the Catholic Church teaches these two things, “Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation” and “Outside the Catholic Church there is salvation.” Therefore it is up to me to pick one.
)
[/quote]

there are probably more threads on this topic especially in the early days of this forum, than any other. Please do your homework first and read the articles on Salvation in the CA homepage. you chose the This Rock forum for this post, so I urge you to search the TR back issues for the best education you will find on this topic.

In the statements you cite you are making the very common confusion between “no salvation outside the Catholic Church” and “you have to be a baptized practicing Catholic to be saved”. These statements do not say or imply the same thing, neither do the statements you quote.

To be very brief, salvation comes from the Jesus Christ, 2nd person of the blessed Trinity, who entered history through his by the power of the Holy Spirit, lived, preached, suffered, died, was buried, rose again, ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit to inspire, guide and protect the Church which he founded. He founded a Church, trained its first leaders, and gave it the sacramental means to mediate his promised, continuing presence on earth until the end of time, and commander her to evangelize the whole world so that the whole world throughout the ages would have access to his saving, sanctifying grace.

The normal means to benefit from that saving grace is through baptism into the Catholic Church, participation in the Eucharist and the other sacraments.

God wills all humans to be saved, and we affirm in the Creed that those righteous who died before the Resurrection were indeed saved, without baptism or initiation into the Catholic Church. All the righteous, who have not had the opportunity to hear or understand the Gospel message and enter the Church–through lack of preaching and evangelization by Catholics, through invincible ignorance, through barriers to faith set up by sinful actions of others, especially Catholics, for whatever reason, still have access to salvation, but the source is always Jesus Christ, there is no other name by which we are saved. That grace is always mediated through the sacramental economy of the Catholic Church, there is no other means established by Christ through which that saving grace is given.

That is precisely why it is important for all Catholics to practice the faith, that all Catholic liturgy and worship be in accord with that given to us by Christ and formalized by his Church, why all Catholics must evangelize by word and deed, so that the world may be sanctified and saved. Those who cannot join the Catholic Church, can still be saved. Jesus is in the sacraments, he is not bound by the sacraments, he saves whom he will, but it is accomplished only through his grace, and only through the Church–even for those who have never heard of the Church. Why? Because he established the Church for this purpose.


#5

The Church absolutely does not teach both (there is and there isn’t). It can appear that way if you don’t understand the complete story.

On this very site, read Salvation outside the Church. It’s really very comprehensive and good!


#6

“In the statements you cite you are making the very common confusion between “no salvation outside the Catholic Church” and “you have to be a baptized practicing Catholic to be saved”. These statements do not say or imply the same thing, neither do the statements you quote.”

I don’t think you read the quotes. They seem pretty clear to me. I’ll take a Pope’s word over yours.

Pope Eugene IV:
"“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body”


#7

[quote=awalt]The Church absolutely does not teach both (there is and there isn’t). It can appear that way if you don’t understand the complete story.

On this very site, read Salvation outside the Church. It’s really very comprehensive and good!
[/quote]

I think the Catechism does teach both:

CCC 846 “Outside the Church there is no salvation”

That seems pretty clear.

and

CCC 847 "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church:

This means there is salvation out side the Church if you don’t know the Church.

Therefore, “There is no salvation outside the Church unless there is salvation outside the Church.”

I guess I’m good with this. It’s a mystery but we believe in a lot of mysteries. :thumbsup:

Steve


#8

I meant what you just said, that in fact there is a singular teaching. For those that know the truth of the Church and reject it, there is no salvation. For others, be they Catholic, non-Catholic, non-Christian, Christian, there could be. It’s one doctrine.

Of course on a case-by-case basis, God decides :wink:


#9

[quote=awalt]I meant what you just said, that in fact there is a singular teaching. For those that know the truth of the Church and reject it, there is no salvation. For others, be they Catholic, non-Catholic, non-Christian, Christian, there could be. It’s one doctrine.

Of course on a case-by-case basis, God decides :wink:
[/quote]

However, this is not what many of the saints taught. I can’t believe that this many Saints would be in conflict with the way we teach this today. Something is wrong. I’m not sure what, but it is but I believe it is safer to take what these Saints have said at their word.

Here are some Saint Quotes.

Saint Cyprian (died A. D 258): "He who has turned his back on the Church of Christ shall not come to the rewards of Christ; he is an alien, a worldling, an enemy. Yor cannoth have God for you Father if you have not the Church for your mother. Our Lord warns us when He says: ‘he that is not with Me is against Me, and he the gathereth not with Me scattereth.’ Whosoever breaks the peace and harmony of Christ acts against Christ: whoever gathers elsewhere than in the Church scatters the Church of Christ (Unity of the Catholic Church)

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one cansing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Sun and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesiae plebem)

Saint Fulgetius (died A.D 533): “Most firemly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Curch, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Enchiridion Partisticum)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590- 604): “Now the holy Cyhurch universal proclams that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within her-self, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.”

Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274): “There is no entering into salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church.” (Summa Theologiae)

Saint Peter Canisius (died A.D. 1597): “Outside of this communion - as outside of the ark of Noah - there is absolutely no salvation for mortals: not for Jews or pagans who never received the faith of the Churdh, nor for heretics who, having received it, corrupted it; neither for excommunicated or those who for any other serious cause deserve to be put away and separated from the body of the Church like pernicious members…for the fule of Cyprian and Augustine is certain: he will not have God for his Father who would not have the Church for his mother.” (Catechismi Latini et Germanici)


#10

Now, you should know that if they fall into moral sin during their life - they have no sacramental confession. They don’t believe in it. This is why the church teaches that salvation may be possible - but it’s very unlikely outside the church.

we do believe in confession,we confess our sin to Jesus.
does not scripture say we have but one mediator between us and god Christ Jesus?
I am not here to put down the catholic faith but I do have some ligitimate questions If you dont mind.
I was born and raised catholic I do not reject the faith because,I have seen that all the christian faiths are in appostasy including the catholic faith.
I believe that we can all come to a concensis if we are willing to put aside our differences and pride and work to gether for Jesus instead of for our selves.
why do the churches insist on holding on to doctrine that is obviously false?
why as i have seen with my own eyes does the catholic church insist on making the bible fit with doctrine instead of making doctrine fit with the bible?
why does man insist on making the bible fit with what man percives as truth instead if man learning gods truth?

Please dont take this as an attack on the catholic church,I have asked similar questions to other denominations.
I have read my bible and come to different stance than other christian beliefs.infact my belief as I have come to learn actualy shows that everyone has a little piece of the truth but nobody has the whole truth.I believe this is for a reason…only through unity of the body of christ can we find truth.


#11

[quote=Steve40]I think the Catechism does teach both:

CCC 846 “Outside the Church there is no salvation”

That seems pretty clear.

and

CCC 847 "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church:

This means there is salvation out side the Church if you don’t know the Church.

Therefore, “There is no salvation outside the Church unless there is salvation outside the Church.”

I guess I’m good with this. It’s a mystery but we believe in a lot of mysteries. :thumbsup:

Steve
[/quote]

Steve!
The salvation is nothing without Jesus. So keep His hand in the dark of world and trust on God. He will show you all you want to know.


#12

Protestants, evangelicals, menonites. They all believe in Jesus and have faith and if you hve faith u have salvation. Just because they are not into the true church of christ well they are also church of christ but i guess u could say that the original is catholic, it doesn’t mean they won’t go to heaven.Christ :stuck_out_tongue: obviously will do something to save them although they have broken from the catholic church where his vicar is. :thumbsup:

DIVINE MERCY[/FONT]

“The two rays denote Blood and Water. The pale ray stands for the Water which makes souls righteous. The red ray stands for the Blood which is the life of souls. These two rays issued forth from the depths of My tender mercy when My agonized Heart was opened by a lance on the Cross … Happy is the one who will dwell in their shelter, for the just hand of God shall not lay hold of him”


#13

[quote=Steve40]I think the Catechism does teach both:

CCC 846 “Outside the Church there is no salvation”

That seems pretty clear.

and

CCC 847 "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church:

This means there is salvation out side the Church if you don’t know the Church.

Therefore, “There is no salvation outside the Church unless there is salvation outside the Church.”

I guess I’m good with this. It’s a mystery but we believe in a lot of mysteries. :thumbsup:

Steve
[/quote]

Me, USMC, itsjustdave1988 and several others were in a big discussion over this the other day. Here is the link, it goes into great detail about it. It shows that harmony of “No Salvation outside the Church”. USMC makes a good arguement for no salvation outside the Church and also harmonizes it with the possibility that some not prophessed Catholics could be saved.


#14

[quote=jimmy]Me, USMC, itsjustdave1988 and several others were in a big discussion over this the other day. Here is the link, it goes into great detail about it. It shows that harmony of “No Salvation outside the Church”. USMC makes a good arguement for no salvation outside the Church and also harmonizes it with the possibility that some not prophessed Catholics could be saved.
[/quote]

dnt get it. wer the link? By the way hw about evangelicals dat believe in jesus? Do u mea der is no salvation outside chrsitendom or no salvation outside our church? :cool:


#15

See here: No Salvation Outside the Church


#16

[quote=Steve40]Right now I believe the Catholic Church teaches these two things, “Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation” and “Outside the Catholic Church there is salvation.” Therefore it is up to me to pick one.

Only recently, I have become aware of what the Church fathers have taught (see below). Based upon these quotes and what other saints have said I am inclined to believe the first statement above that “Outside the Church there is no salvation.” I am confused by the double speak of today’s Catechism which does state outside the Church there is no salvation and then goes on to say how there is salvation outside the Church. I believe the Catechism is deficient in that it is silent on the statements from Popes and councils below and does not address them. Maybe I should take a historic vote on those in authority who have said there is no salvation outside the Church and those who have said there is salvation outside the Church before I decide who I’m going to believe. :thumbsup:

Pope Quotes
"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent II, Fourth Lateran Council)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VII, the Bull Unam Sanctam)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)
[/quote]

I think it would be more profitable when contemplating question “Outside the Church there is no salvation?” by reflecting on His Holiness’ John Paul II statement- “All grace flows THROUGH the Church”. Therefore, if there is salvation outside of the Church, it is dependent upon the Church anyway. It would not be an “independent” salvation. See?


#17

Within Catholic theology, we receive grace through the sacraments. Yet, we also understand that God conveys grace *extra-sacramentally. That is, “the reality of the sacrament can be had through the very desire of receiving the sacrament” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, *III, 73, 3).

Likewise, we receive grace only by being joined to the body of Christ, the Catholic Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus). However, how are we joined to the Catholic Church? Is it taught by the Church that only by being a card-carrying Catholic member of a Catholic parish is one joined to the Catholic Church? Or it is taught by the Catholic Church that there can be those who may not seem visibly joined to the Catholic Church in our eyes, but may indeed by joined in the eyes of God? I believe the latter is true.

Like the desire for the sacrament which brings its reality, the desire to be joined to the Church brings its reality. Thus, Pius XII taught that one can be joined to the Church by “a certain unconscious yearning or desire.” However, being joined to the Church eithing visibly or by desire is not enough for salvation. To be within the ark of salvation one’s life must be animated by “perfect love” and “supernatural faith.”

This is how Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (Outside the Church there is No Salvation) is to be understood, because this is how the Church herself teaches it.

God most certainly desires that every human be joined, body and soul to the Holy Catholic Church. However, many are joined only in body and not in soul. These are outside the ark of salvation. Some are not joined in body, but are joined in soul. These are within the ark of salvation. These are INSIDE the Catholic Church in the eyes of God, while perhaps not visibly within the Church in our eyes. Likewise, Catholics who live in mortal sin are OUTSIDE the Catholic Church in the eyes of God, while perhaps visibly appear to be in the Church in our eyes.

We go into greater depth in the other thread, here:
No Salvation Outside the Church


#18

Didn’t JPII say the Jews have a special relationship with God and that their covenants are not superceded by Christianity?

“John Paul II reinforced and strengthened the Nostra Aetate teachings of the Church: that the Jews are not guilty of deicide, that Christianity does not supersede or replace the ongoing covenant between God and the Jewish people, and that Jews are not to be targeted for evangelization”

js.emory.edu/BLUMENTHAL/After%20JPII.htm


#19

[quote=MikeinSD]Didn’t JPII say the Jews have a special relationship with God and that their covenants are not superceded by Christianity?
[/quote]

If you could provide a quote from John Paul II where he says that Jews are exempt from evangelization, that would be more convincing than a “reflection” on his teachings by a Jewish author.

As far as I can tell, all men are to be evangelized. “The Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men” (CCC 848). “All men” includes Jews. In fact, it includes Catholics!!! At least that’s what John Paul II’s Catechism teaches.

*Lumen Gentium *explains, regarding those who have not yet received the Gospel, to include the Jews…

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.

It is important to note that footnote 18 states of those “related in various ways to the people of God.” It is from **St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III, 8, 3:

“Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially. And this potentiality is rooted in two things–first and principally, in the power of Christ, which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race; secondly, in ***free-will.***” (Summa Theologica, III, 8, 3)

Jews and others who have yet to receive the Gospel, are, according to Vatican II, in the Church potentially. Nothing here about not needing to evangelize them.


#20

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