Over everyone's head...

Taken from the thread: “Trinity and Islam”

Sister Amy says:

It’s also over your head, and over the heads of everyone else on the forum ( to argue/comprehend the following Islamic quote):

We confess that the Kuran is the speech of Allah, uncreated, His inspiration and revelation, not He, yet not other than He, but His real quality, written in the copies, recited by the tongues, preserved in the breasts, yet not residing there. The ink, the paper, the writing are created, for they are the work of men. The speech of Allah on the other hand is uncreated, for the writing and the letters and the words and the verses are manifestations of the Kuran for the sake of human needs. The speech of Allah on the other hand is self-existing, and its meaning is understood by means of these things. Whoso sayeth that the speech of Allah is created, he is an infidel regarding Allah, the Exalted, whom men serve, who is eternally the same, His speech being recited or written and retained in the heart, yet never dissociated from Him.

What do others think about this quote? what do you think it means?

I wouldn’t even try to guess. Since I know next to nothing about Islam (just the basics), how in the world would I begin to give an educated opinion on the Koran?

It’s hard enough to know what the OT means to Xians, never mind what the same passages mean to Jews. The Koran?! I think I would need a teacher, or a lot of study hours.

This is not taken from the Quran. It is a theological argument.

As a person who knows comparatively little as Islam, reading that quote just as is with no background, I take it to mean that the Kuran is simply a worldly manifestation of the words of Allah, presented in such a form so that we little insects on earth can get a glimpse of Allah’s plans for us, and that to think too deeply about how the Kuran got here in the first place is to be an infidel.

**It looks to me as if the OP is saying that the Koran is an hypostasis, like Wisdom in Proverbs 8.22-31 :slight_smile: **

**Or like Wisdom in Sirach 24. That chapter is very interesting, because Wisdom is there the same thing as the Torah. **

**In some NT books, Jesus is the uncreated Wisdom of God - a revelation of God, no less than the Torah; but fully personal as well. Whereas Wisdom in Proverbs 8 is a created being. **

**Historically, the OP’s idea is a late expression of a way of thinking that was very common in the Ancient Near East: the Mesopotamian sun-god Shamash had two hypostases, Misharu & Kittu, for instance: they personify aspects of his character as a god of justice. **

**Hypostases of that sort manifest a god’s character, the total being of the god is not exhausted by them; & they have their own identity. So, God is manifested by His wisdom - but not limited to it. He exceeds all manifestations of Him. **

**As a concept, hypostasisation has been very fruitful: for Christian theism, for understanding what the Bible is, for understanding Ancient Near Eastern religion & Judaism. There’s a lot of it around - in both Testaments :slight_smile: **

**The Bible itself is an hypostasis of sorts: it is not God, but it has His authority & power; it is dynamic & living & unfathomable, just as He is. It reflects & expresses His Righteous character, & is quasi-personal. **

**AFAICS, the OP is saying that the Koran is co-eternal with God. Whether one can say as a Christian that creature is co-eternal, is more difficult; what’s needed, ISTM, is a detailed “bibliology” - a theological account of the Bible’s being & activity. **

:whacky: I dunno – it must be over my head! :whacky:

:ouch: Guess I’m too stoopid to be a Moslem. Glad that relieves me of *that *responsibility. Oh well, where was I? :dancing:

Our Sister Amy is an intellectual.

Muslims and Christians read and interpret text in different ways. Interpreting the subtext (and context) of the scriptures will lead to different conclusions.

When Amy tells her Christian brothers and sisters that it is over your head she’s not necessarily insulting anyone. She’s recognizing the fact that we approach the meaning of terms as they are constructed by determining context, and that we determine context arbitrarily, based upon our own backgrounds and the preconceived notions they inherently invoke. The Islamic constructions differ from their Christian counterparts, which leads to an inevitable breakdown of communication.

It boils down to a question of signifier/signified, and the deferred relationship between the two.

Personally, i think its a sign of defeat for Sister Amy. I know of many people who use this very same tactic when they are losing a debate. They say ‘oh, you just dont understand’ or in this case, ‘its over your head’ :wink:

I think Sister Amy is right. It’s way over my head.

It sounds ever so slightly like something else… If you just replace the words, it has kind of the same meaning as something else. Here, let me try.

We confess that Jesus is the Word of God, uncreated, His inspiration and revelation, not He, yet not other than He, but His real quality, written in the copies, recited by the tongues, preserved in the breasts, yet not residing there. The ink, the paper, the writing are created, for they are the work of men. The **Word of God **on the other hand is uncreated, for the writing and the letters and the words and the verses are manifestations of the Word for the sake of human needs. The **Word of God **on the other hand is self-existing, and its meaning is understood by means of these things. Whoso sayeth that the **Word of God **is created, he is a heretic/apostate/ignoramous regarding God, the Exalted, whom men serve, who is eternally the same, His Word being recited or written and retained in the heart, yet never dissociated from Him.

How does that sound? In bold where I changed words. Whether or not theologically sound, sounds sort of like a Platonic understanding of God, but I’d have to ask someone a little bit more studied than myself on that. :stuck_out_tongue:

From Al-Aqidah Al-Wasitiyah - Ibn Taymiyah

Part of the belief in Allah and His Books28 is the belief that the Qur’an is Allah’s Word revealed,not created29, **that in Him it originated and unto Him it returns, that Allah truly uttered it, that this Qur’an which He revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him) is truly the Word of Allah not the word of any other, that it is not allowable to say it is a narrative of the Word of Allah or an interpretation of it. **That if the people read it or write it in books does not mean it is not the true Word of Allah, The Exalted, because **speech is attributed to the one who spoke it initially, not to the one who narrated it. **It is the Word of Allah, its letters and its meaning. The Word of Allah is not the words only, without meaning, and not the meaning only, without words.

  1. Allah’s Books are: The Books which He revealed, namely; The Torah (at-Tawrah), The Gospel (al-Injil) and the Qur’an.

  2. Here Ibn Taimiyah is responding to the Mu’tazilah who claimed that the Qur’an is created.

And I maintain that it’s over your head. In order for it to make any sense, one would have to have studied Islamic Aqeedah in the first place. There is absolutely no concept of this in Christianity, and the attempt to restate it implying Jesus as Word is false and misleading, completely foreign to the explanation or analysis of
Imam Abu Hanifah, Ibn Taymiyyah, or any other respected scholar of Islam. Wallahu Alam.

This creed is apparently indicates how some Islamic groups were influenced by the Athanasian creed and the controversies regarding the nature of the divine Word, which corresponded to Allah’s expression of Himself.

According to the followers of this creed, Allah’s Word was divine in nature because it was believed to be uncreated.

Not He, yet not other than He: Word is distinct from Allah in person, but equal to Him in nature. Nothing could express better than this the basic Christian belief in Logos’ (Jesus’) divinity.

I wonder why you deem it necessary to state this and praise Sister Amy’s intellect.

However, Sister Amy does not say that Muslims and Christians can naturally reach different conclusions. She simply says no one should even attempt to read and interpret the creed quoted above.

Nevertheless, Sister Amy also says “It (this quote) is over the heads of EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS FORUM”. Thus, what she means is not the same as you - personally - get from that statement.

Peace to you. :slight_smile:

:wink:

Dear Angelos,

You are correct. If muslims claims that the Speech of Allah is uncreated, then it will be very interesting because it becomes closer to John 1:1.

** Musnad Ahmad, Hadith# 20260: **(A)
Where the sura#33 (Alahzab) in Quran was identical to the length of sura#2 (Albaqara), but now its shorter than that.:confused:

** Sunan Abn Majah, Hadith# 1934: **(A)
Some suras of the Quran have been eaten by a goat under Aisha (Muhammad’s wife) bed.:eek:

** Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510:**
Uthman burned all Quran copies except one.:mad:
(E) (A).

** Sahih Muslim, Book 017, Number 4194:
**** Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817:
**A particular verse of the stoning punishment (for stoning Shekhs(male) & Shekhas(female)) was revealed to Muhammad, but yet its not found in Quran.:shrug:
(E) (A).
(E) (A).

correct.

:thumbsup:

Actually you’re not correct, nor do you have any basis in Islamic doctrine for your assumption.

You’re merely fulfilling the fantasy of inJESUS who has repeatedly try to pretend that Islam teaches Christianity. The poster is wrong now, as he/she has been wrong in the past.

It’s kind of embarrassing for you that this keeps coming up. :shrug:

Telling you it was over your head was mostly a favor. I have no interest whatsoever in discussing this topic with you.

Whom are you addressing now???

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