Overforgiveness


#1

Hello guys. I have a bit of a predickament here and I was wondering if ya’ll could help me out.
At this other forum, Me and some others are talking faith with some others (defending and explaining) and this person jumps on us and tells us how intolerante (dispite we had not told anyone that they were going to hell for not being catholic and were trying to be as nice as possible) and that Jesus had preached love and tolerace and so on and so forth (trying to tell us that no matter what everybodys faith was the were going to heaven and we shouldn’t be judgeing people and “forcing” our ideas on others).
I tried to tell her that while Jesus would forgive he wouldn’t let things slide and that we are supposed to stand up and tell people that they shouldn’t do bad things. Anyway a livly debate insued. She quoted “Judge Not and you will not be Judged” and “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.
I told her that the “Judge Not…” seemed to me less of a don’t Judge but, watch out how you judge for it is coming right back at you.
The second quote I am less sure how to respond to. I am thinking that Jesus knew that the lady wouldn’t be doing that anymore and wanted to get her out of the situation (on to prove a point to the Pharisees that they wern’t all that good either) and hence also “Go your way and sin now more”. Comments on that.
I then proceeded to tell 'em my posistion that Jesus wasn’t let things be and that we should be called to action (to bring people to christ <—big part with her was our attemped evangelism/defences of our faith, and standing up to injustices like abortion and seeing that they are stoped and other people don’t do those things). Jesus saw in the temple the money changers and drove them out. He condemned people “ye of little faith…” his numerous conemnations of the Pharisees, saducees, scrides, ect. He told us to Judge with Ritghous Judgement. He also told us to follow the Goverment, Give unto Ceaser…(the point being, submission to outside powers which tell us what to do even if we don’t like it) also the epistles we mostly corrective letters that were condemning people for doing sins of various sorts and to cut it out (showing that the role model Christians didn’t beleive that we should just let things be).
I would like ya’lls opions and insight into this. I have gone half-cocked into things before and only come back when I have gotten thrashed and have my tail between my legs. Though I haven’t talked to the person scince friday it is a rather stailmate. Please help me with this. If I am off on any concept or idea (if something doesn’t line up with church teachings) please draw my attention to it so I can correct it. The last thing I would want to do is to bring her over to my point of veiw then find out later I was a bit off. Thanks for your patcine in reading this rather long post and also for any help you can leand. As alway God bless. Montie C. Claunch


#2

I agree with your friend to be honest. Attend to the plank in your own eye and all that. Frankly, none of us are perfect and I think that sort of criticism always goes down badly. Jesus example seems obvious to me. He welcomed all and had a go at the people who were wrong indirectly- he taught the people through parables not to behave like that. Being “Christ-like” for me means accepting all people in a spirit of love and charity and doing what I can to help them, to make them smile. It’s often really hard, a real challenge, but that sort of vindicates it as correct for me.

Peace be with you.


#3

But He also chastised the woman at the well for her multiple marriages. Yet He still loved her.

Certain things are wrong to do, it doesn’t matter if that person refuses to accept that, it is still wrong. We have a duty to inform people and convince them to sin no more.

Dislike the action, not the person. There is always hope for that person to turn things around.


#4

It’s hard to do. I do think Jesus could criticise anyone he wanted (he was a pretty good bloke- as well as almighty God) but he broadly didn’t.

I’m not saying that we should think anything is OK. I have my view on things and if someone asks me I will tell them my opinion and hopefully, because it is my position, back it up by some reading round the subject. I just think telling people they’re wrong and you are right is a pretty backward sort of Christianity to be honest.


#5

But when we say that having a homosexual relationship/lifestyle is wrong and evil, it is not an incorrect statement. We find proof of that in the Bible.

“Gay-bashing” is also evil, it is not respectful of another person.

The main point is that we should be respecting people, not necessarily their ideas or their actions. I certainly don’t respect a satan worshiper’s ideas on his “religion”. Granted, that is at a far end of the spectrum, but how can you respect someone’s evil lifestyle any more?


#6

Sirach 42:8

Do not be ashamed to correct the stupid or foolish

or the aged who are guilty of sexual immorality.

Then you will show your sound training,

and will be approved by all.

Psalm 141:5

Let the righteous strike me;

let the faithful correct me.

Also there is a text somewhere which I can’t find, but I think it is the OT , about if we correct someone and they take no notice we will live, but if we do not correct them we take their sin upon ourselves and we will die.


#7

Montie,

Sorry, don’t have much useful advice but I just want to offer my support.

To say that the Catholic Church is the only 100% true and right church is something that we should all do. It’s not a matter of tolerance. If a group of students at school decided to believe that one and one made three, the teacher would not ‘tolerate’ their belief, they would tell them the truth (and mark them down in the exam paper if they put down that one and one made anything but two).

Even this person who opposed you for teaching what you did will benefit from you speaking the truth in the long run. So yea, stick with it. My prayers are with you.


#8

I believe the quote you look for is somewhere in Ezekial.

I think this discussion is all about hating the sin but not the sinner. Certain actions are sinful. Which means they carry temporal consequences for them. Those consequences can vary in their magnitude.

We don’t have to condemn anyone for what they have done, but pointing out that certain actions lead to life and other actions don’t is a service. Not all will listen, and at some point we should follow Jesus’s advice to “not throw pearls before swine.”

It is a challenging task to maintain the right attitude in this matter.

peace

-Jim


#9

Hello Montie,

I have a web page where I do nothing more than go through the New Testament and quote Jesus every time He tells us about those He or the Father will not forgive and where Jesus talks about those He will cast into hell. WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All

I had a person e-mail me and ask me why have I made Jesus look so evil?

I think your thinking is correct. People have gone so far overboard on overforgiveness that they have created a false jesus of their own creation. Like those who make false gods.


#10

[quote=FightingFat]I agree with your friend to be honest. Attend to the plank in your own eye and all that. Frankly, none of us are perfect and I think that sort of criticism always goes down badly. Jesus example seems obvious to me. He welcomed all and had a go at the people who were wrong indirectly- he taught the people through parables not to behave like that. Being “Christ-like” for me means accepting all people in a spirit of love and charity and doing what I can to help them, to make them smile. It’s often really hard, a real challenge, but that sort of vindicates it as correct for me.

Peace be with you.
[/quote]

I think we are confusing ‘welcoming’ and ‘accepting’ with letting people continue with bad behavior and telling them it is ok to do it.

For instance, I have absolutely no problem with Church teaching on sex outside of marriage. When I was having sex outside of marriage, I never once attempted to receive the Eucharist. Neither did I attend Mass on a regular basis. I knew I was not living a good life. When I returned to the Church, received the Sacrament of Reconcilliation, accepted the teachings of the Church I stopped having sex outside of marriage.

Now, am I perfect in all my behavior? No! That’s why I still go to Confession at least once a month, if not more often. However, I do NOT ask the Church to change its teachings and make the sins I committ ok so I do not have to go to Confession. Instead, I try to change MY behavior.

The Church has always been welcoming; however, it has always challenged me to try and be a better Leslie than I was willing to be…today, because I beat up myself by the choices I made, I am willing to meet that challenge. Though I fall short in many ways, in many other ways I meet and exceed the challenge. As a result I live a much better life and I am not nearly a bruised and battered.


#11

[quote=LSK]I think we are confusing ‘welcoming’ and ‘accepting’ with letting people continue with bad behavior and telling them it is ok to do it.

For instance, I have absolutely no problem with Church teaching on sex outside of marriage. When I was having sex outside of marriage, I never once attempted to receive the Eucharist. Neither did I attend Mass on a regular basis. I knew I was not living a good life. When I returned to the Church, received the Sacrament of Reconcilliation, accepted the teachings of the Church I stopped having sex outside of marriage.

Now, am I perfect in all my behavior? No! That’s why I still go to Confession at least once a month, if not more often. However, I do NOT ask the Church to change its teachings and make the sins I committ ok so I do not have to go to Confession. Instead, I try to change MY behavior.

The Church has always been welcoming; however, it has always challenged me to try and be a better Leslie than I was willing to be…today, because I beat up myself by the choices I made, I am willing to meet that challenge. Though I fall short in many ways, in many other ways I meet and exceed the challenge. As a result I live a much better life and I am not nearly a bruised and battered.
[/quote]

double gold props to you. One, for backing my up. Two for turning yourself around like that, I am impressed. Way to go.


#12

[quote=Montie Claunch]double gold props to you. One, for backing my up. Two for turning yourself around like that, I am impressed. Way to go.
[/quote]

Thank you - I credit AA, my mother’s prayers and God having the wisdom to send the power of his love in the form of a Scottish Terrier named Shaw’s Roddy MacDuff to teach me that He is all loving, all forgiving and wants me to try my darndest to be the best Leslie I can be, one day at a time!

The humility part comes in accepting that I will not be perfect, though I am to try to be, one day at a time…


#13

[quote=Montie Claunch]Anyway a livly debate insued. She quoted “Judge Not and you will not be Judged” and “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”.
[/quote]

We aren’t supposed to judge our brothers and sisters in Christ-- how could we, we can’t read their hearts and minds! But we can certainly judge their actions. There is a difference between judging a person (God’s domain) and correcting them and their actions. What do you think God meant by 2 Tim 3:16?

16 3 4 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,


#14

[quote=RobNY]We aren’t supposed to judge our brothers and sisters in Christ-- how could we, we can’t read their hearts and minds! But we can certainly judge their actions. There is a difference between judging a person (God’s domain) and correcting them and their actions. What do you think God meant by 2 Tim 3:16?
[/quote]

Nothing there about people being refuted or corrected - the text is indefinite as to what or who is being corrected or refuted - it’s very general; as one might expect, given its context.


#15

[quote=LSK]I think we are confusing ‘welcoming’ and ‘accepting’ with letting people continue with bad behavior and telling them it is ok to do it.

For instance, I have absolutely no problem with Church teaching on sex outside of marriage. When I was having sex outside of marriage, I never once attempted to receive the Eucharist.
[/quote]

I don’t think I am. You are talking about judging your own actions here not someone elses. That can only be admirable.
But look at the JW’s, look at the Baptists, they are so sure they are right and so quick to judge.


#16

One of the spiritual acts of mercy is the admonishment of sinners.
From newadvent.org/cathen/04394a.htm

"Fraternal correction is here taken to mean the admonishing of one’s neighbor by a private individual with the purpose of reforming him or, if possible, preventing his sinful indulgence. This is clearly distinguishable from an official disciplining, whose mouthpiece is a judge or other like superior, whose object is the punishment of one found to be guilty, and whose motive is not so directly the individual advantage of the offender as the furtherance of the common good. That there is, upon occasion and with due regard to circumstances, an obligation to administer fraternal correction there can be no doubt. This is a conclusion not only deducible from the natural law binding us to love and to assist one another, but also explicitly contained in positive precept such as the inculcation of Christ: “If thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother” (Matthew 18:15)…

Of course the reproof is to be administered privately, i.e. directly to the delinquent and not in the presence of others. This is plainly the method appointed by Christ in the words just cited and only as a remedy for obduracy is any other contemplated by Him. Still there are occasions upon which one might lawfully proceed in a different way…"

There is more there, but I hope that helps.

We must admonish the sinner, but we must do it in a way that respects the other person. Like in most circumstances avoiding doing it in front of everyone. It should also humbe us, because we know that we too are sinners, and we may need to be admonished ourselves.

We must not judge, we do not know their hearts in minds. I remember a story that went something like this, a person goes to a priest and says look that person over there is a much bigger sinner than I. The priest says back, if you had to carry the crosses he carries you’d be down on your knees begging for mercy.

But why should we admonish the sinner? Remember when a lost sould repents the whole choir of angles sing with joy.


#17

If only it was always cut & dried eh?


#18

[quote=FightingFat]If only it was always cut & dried eh?
[/quote]

You got that. Its a narrow gate. Sometimes, I think its easy and I often do this myself, you start thinking it is either this or that, and it turns out both are wrong.


#19

I wonder why you didn’t quote some of the following scriptures:

(John 12:47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn Him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects Me and refuses My words has his judge already, the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Hebrews 6:4-8) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.” ???


#20

my aplogies Giver. I shall had it on at the next meeting.


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